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Author Topic: That old saw: A7 port size
aeyb701
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posted May 04, 2008 12:13 PM      Profile for aeyb701   Email aeyb701   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hello once again:
In reading many old threads, as well as 40-plus year-old Altec literature on the topic there seems concensus that 75 square inches is an optimal port size for the 825 or 828 cabinet
for tuning at about 45 Hz.
Why then did Altec make their ports on the order of 200 sq. inches?
Can someone opine?
Thanks,
Jon Archibald,
Indian River, Ontario

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Audio_by_Goodwill
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posted May 04, 2008 01:44 PM      Profile for Audio_by_Goodwill     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by aeyb701:
In reading many old threads, as well as 40-plus year-old Altec literature on the topic there seems concensus that 75 square inches is an optimal port size for the 825 or 828 cabinet
for tuning at about 45 Hz.

Hmm, I wasn't aware that Altec literature specified a 75 square inch port. Can you post a link to what your reading?

quote:

Why then did Altec make their ports on the order of 200 sq. inches?

Until I measured my port, I didn't realise how much bigger than 75, the factory ports are. I just calculated over 211.

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Audio_by_Goodwill
Michigan, USA


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Posts: 311 | From: Southwest Michigan | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Problem w/ Post?
aeyb701
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posted May 04, 2008 02:09 PM      Profile for aeyb701   Email aeyb701   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not that Altec directly specified 75 sq in for the A7-but I infer that from the graph in:

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/plans/1968-enclosure/page04.jpg

using 10 cu ft to be a ROUGH volume for the A7.

I have a similar graph from ca. 1964 Altec speaker brochure copy I got on eBay-but no link.

Meantime I covered half the port area from behind the cloth and am listening-initial impression is there's lower bass but maybe more peaky at other frequencies...I'll listen with it like that for a few days.

Jon

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GM
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posted May 04, 2008 02:18 PM      Profile for GM     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Greets!

75"^2 vents was chosen by various forum members based on their in-room listening experiences, though FWIW me and a few others prefer much lower tunings for HIFI apps.

Altec OTOH tuned them for PA and/or cinema apps, which have a considerably different performance criteria that dictates a higher tuning, though it's preferable for a HIFI app if a sub system is used.

GM

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Loud Is Beautiful, If It's Clean


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Audio_by_Goodwill
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posted May 04, 2008 02:50 PM      Profile for Audio_by_Goodwill     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, that graph is for a purely bass reflex cabinet. Maybe it doesn't work for a combination cabinet.

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Audio_by_Goodwill
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posted May 04, 2008 02:52 PM      Profile for Audio_by_Goodwill     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
problem posting, ended up triple posting.....

really wish I could delete my extra posts!

[ May 04, 2008 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Audio_by_Goodwill ]

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Audio_by_Goodwill
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posted May 04, 2008 03:01 PM      Profile for Audio_by_Goodwill     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
problem posting, ended up triple posting

[ May 04, 2008 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Audio_by_Goodwill ]

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GM
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posted May 04, 2008 03:21 PM      Profile for GM     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's a simple Helmholtz resonator, so it doesn't matter whether it's for a BR, ducted port or combination cab, though the aspect ratio of the cab and the distance between the driver and port does affect tuning to some extent, so for the math to be the most accurate the vent should be acoustically right next to the driver.

GM

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Richard C.
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posted May 04, 2008 11:19 PM      Profile for Richard C.   Email Richard C.   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Someday I am going to have to listen to some REAL VOT (A7 at least!) in a small room; say 15" x 20".

I built a copy 30 years ago, and I didn't like it at all! It was fun to power it with a tiny transistor radio (9V), so loud that we couldn't hardly talk over it. The problem is I had to be 20' away to really appreciate it. I read that many people have them in "normal" sized rooms, but I just don't see how.

I love both my 14's & my 19's, and I don't see how I could improve on them. BUT..., like I said, I would someday like to hear what you guys hear.

I didn't play with the port size of my A7 copy at all, because the Altec plans didn't mention it.

Richard C.

[ May 04, 2008 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Richard C. ]

[ May 04, 2008 11:28 PM: Message edited by: Richard C. ]

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"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is."


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Altec Fan
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posted May 05, 2008 02:52 PM      Profile for Altec Fan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have a pair of A7-500's in a 15x25 room. They produce a very large sound stage but the bottom end is rather modest. Keep in mind that these cabinets are designed to project into a movie theater space. The bass presentation just seems to need some distance in front of the cabinet to get it together. These are not near-space cabinets. I also have a pair of UREI 811A's (604-8K drivers) sitting on top of the A7's. With a decent subwoofer in place (the .1 as in 7.1) the UREI's put the A7's to shame in this space. But I have to give the A7's credit. They make almost perfect stands (sturdy, correct height) for the UREI's. And what better speaker to have on display in a home theater than the "Voice of the Theater".

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Richard C.
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posted May 05, 2008 07:43 PM      Profile for Richard C.   Email Richard C.   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was in love with the way it looked, and I knew of the VOTT reputation, and I had fun building it, but it just didn't work out in a small room. A high powered sub-woofer would have been much better.

I donated it to my son's high school for the GYM/AUDITORIUM. I hung it from the ceiling and pointed it down at about 45 degrees to project into the bleachers. It was fabulous. Good bass, and great midrange, without the terrible echo in that very live room,...even powered with a 100W Bogan PA amp!

I can see why you would want them as furniture in a big sound room.

Richard C.

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Cal Weldon
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posted May 06, 2008 06:05 PM      Profile for Cal Weldon   Email Cal Weldon   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I reduced the port to approx 100^2 on the ones you see in my avatar.

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Nothing like a great big pair of speakers to make your day.


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gamalot
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posted May 06, 2008 08:44 PM      Profile for gamalot   Email gamalot   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm with Richard and Altec Fan on this.

My room is 15 X 18 and the A7 sounds horrible while the 19s and 15s work very nice either one at a time or both together.

I do like some power going to the woofers so there is some flex and just never appreciated the A7s boxed in a small room with no room to breath.

I can't explain why but when listening at lower volumes I like to have the 15s switched in but when I get cranking the 19s sound great alone.

I always blamed my lack of appreciation of the A7s on the 511B horn and felt like I needed to be about 10 feet further away from it.

Gary

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Richard C.
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posted May 08, 2008 10:39 PM      Profile for Richard C.   Email Richard C.   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Gary, did you ever attenuate the 511? I've read about many people that say they haven't heard anything any better in the home. Many say it's better than the 811, and some Klipsch people will even modify their cabinets to install them...

Richard C.

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LegendTi
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posted May 09, 2008 10:46 PM      Profile for LegendTi   Email LegendTi   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Over the winter I tricked out my A7s. Here's a list of tweaks, all resulting in real sonic improvement.

1-Reduce port size to 75sq. inches:tighter, gut punching bass
2-Extensive bracing with internal damping. Greater clarity, less smear.
3-8lbs of modeling clay applied to all external surfaces of each 511 horns. Greater clarity, almost no ringing.
4-1st order x-overs at 750hz, Solen heptalitz coils, NOS OIP caps. Much greater dynamics and musicality.
Its been about three months since I completed the tweaks, in audio heaven.
room dims. 27*15*8, a bigger room would be nice.
Cheers

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aeyb701
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posted May 24, 2008 11:12 AM      Profile for aeyb701   Email aeyb701   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi again all:
I further reduced the port size to 75 sq inches after having read old threads on that.
I have such an improvement in bass with the 515-8G's (despite a cone crease in one of them) I would not ever consider a subwoofer-not that I was keen on one before. Nor is there any mid-bass boominess. Someone else used the word "gut-punching": that's what I've got now, with SS amp/preamp and no tone control boost.
Jon

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LegendTi
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posted May 28, 2008 07:46 PM      Profile for LegendTi   Email LegendTi   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Glad to hear that another person is getting similar bass response to mine by reducing the port size. Forgot to mention in my previous post that I also reduced the output of the 808/511 by 4db, far better balance.
Cheers

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