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[tomt]

About a decade ago, I spent a lot of time in the beautiful country of Croatia, where I developed an interest in ex-Yugoslav poetry. My favorite is probably Zagreb’s Miroslav Krzela, but a modern scribe who intrigues me is the Serb, Dejan Stojanovic.

In his wonderful ‘The Sun Watches the Sun’ he writes: “Statesmen are grocers, ambitious clowns.” Whenever I read it I can’t help but think of the Swedish Foreign Minister, Carl Bildt. For if one is looking for the ultimate contemporary political bobo, it has to be Bildt.

“For a moment at least, be a smile on someone else’s face,” continues Stojanovic. The Swede’s rantings often cause a curl of the lips – but it’s laughing at him, not with him. Now, the time has come to say goodbye to Carl as his government faces a heavy defeat in September’s Swedish parliamentary elections. This isn’t tinged with sadness; Bildt has literally become a joke that isn’t remotely funny anymore.

If any single European politician has blood on his hands in Ukraine this year, it’s Stockholm’s resident neo-con fanatic. He constantly encouraged the violent ‘revolution’ in that tragic, divided nation. This weekend, his administration was busy spilling it around the streets of his own country.

Nazi party, Sveskarnas (The Swede’s Party), were holding a meeting in Malmo and over 2,000 people gathered to protest in a square near the Oresund Bridge – an engineering marvel that connects the country to Denmark. As its leader, Stefan Jacobsson, appeared on stage, the concerned citizens began to chant: “No Nazis on our streets.” At this point, police on horseback – for reasons I can’t fathom – riding at full gallop charged the crowd in defense of the fascists leaving ten people injured, five of them seriously. Dozens of protestors were also arrested.

Now, we do know that southern Sweden has something in common with western Ukraine - a strong fascist community and this has been apparent for decades. Swedish mercenaries have popped up in Kiev in recent months and their foreign minister was clearly the most radical European politician in supporting the coup, which was primarily instigated by far-right elements. The Sundance Kid to his Butch Cassidy, Polish counterpart, Radoslaw Sikorski, was incredibly vocal at first, but has largely vanished after leaked tapes showed him expressing his concerns that "the Polish-US alliance isn't worth anything."

How much this owes to political concerns back home and how much to Bildt’s own fantasies is unclear. It is true that the Sweden Democrats, a previously marginal grouping, are now clearly the country’s third-biggest party, scoring over 12 percent in recent opinion polls. In the 2010 election they obtained only 5 percent, which shows they are a movement on the rise. Meanwhile, Bildt’s Moderate Party has fallen from 30 percent to about 20 percent.

To give a taste of their policies, local politician Par Norling contended in 2012 that practicing Muslims should be deported and Islam banned in Sweden. Their MP Stelllan Bojerud (author of a book, Nazism in Sweden) claims that scientific research shows that immigrants have a ‘lower IQ’ than native Swedes. Replace Sweden with Ukraine and you’d be pretty close to the territory occupied by Svoboda, a Nazi party which currently holds governmental office in Kiev. The only difference being that Ukraine is a massive net emigrant state, which attracts very few immigrants – hardly surprising when the average monthly working wage is a mere €173.

Sweden's Foreign Minister Carl Bildt.(Reuters / Laurent Dubrule )

Sweden's Foreign Minister Carl Bildt.(Reuters / Laurent Dubrule )

Ukraine and the Scandinavian nation are not unique in contemporary Europe. In Hungary, Jobbik routinely persecute Jews and Roma. Further west, Italy's Lega Nord last year called for a “white Christmas” where police would target immigrant neighborhoods to find the undocumented. And Greece has Golden Dawn which likes to attack foreigner-owned businesses. Next door to Sweden, one of the SD's biggest supporters killed 77 people in 2011 for their “multiculturalism.” Anders Behring Breivik is currently serving a 21-year sentence (the maximum allowed under Norwegian law) for his hideous crimes.

Last December, Bildt cautioned that “violence must be avoided” in Kiev and in February he was calling for asset freezes and visa bans for those behind it - so long as they were on the elected government’s side of course. He spent the winter months tweeting dozens of daily messages of support to Western Ukrainian activists and a volley of threats to the elected President Yanukovich.

After the latter’s ouster in the February coup, he then turned his fire to Moscow and he has continuously used his position as foreign minister to back pro-Kiev forces in the civil war and scold the Kremlin. Now, in his final days in office, he is so divorced from reality that he’s promoting an EU bailout for Ukraine’s crippled economy – notwithstanding the fact that Brussels is unable to save existing members like Greece and Spain.

In fact, Bildt is so incredibly attached to using the Ukrainian people as proxies for his neo-con tussle with Russia that he managed to tweet them congratulations on their Independence Day 24 hours early on August 23rd – the actual date is the 24th. Of course, that was the day after his imagination declared that Russia was invading Ukraine with big white trucks. Our hero was unable to see what the rest of the world saw: humanitarian assistance to a city with no electricity and dangerously low food stocks and medical supplies. Instead, Bildt decided that the 76th Russian airborne unit were launching a “full-scale attempt to secure key areas.” Doubtless this was news to the soldiers who were, presumably, planning their weekend in Russia around that time.

Bildt rose without trace from an aristocratic background in Halmstad to become Sweden's first right-wing prime pinister in six decades back in 1991. He immediately dedicated himself to securing EEC membership in 1995 and presided over an economic crisis but, to his credit, reforms he instigated did create the conditions for recovery. The combative Swede then turned his attention to foreign policy, initially taking on various EU and UN roles in the former Yugoslavia.

Reuters / Drago Prvulovic

Reuters / Drago Prvulovic

In the Balkans, Bildt managed to unite all parties - against him. Croats remember him accusing their former President Franjo Tudjman of war crimes and Serbs recall his subsequent fervent support for Kosovan separatism, a concept he is now viciously opposed to in Ukraine. He was initially sympathetic to the Bosnian Serb position before he managed to ingratiate himself with US officials and suddenly changed tack. So detested was Bildt in Croatia that, in 1995, their government declared him persona non grata. It was also around this time that he became friendly with the Clintons and assumed the role of America's favorite European 'useful idiot.'

Bildt's ability to make himself unwelcome reared up again in 2008, when the Russian Foreign Ministry announced that he was no longer welcome in Moscow after he compared the country to Hitler's Germany, when the pro-NATO former Georgian regime provoked a brief war over South Ossetia. Also, that year he received a stern rebuke from Israeli officials after he equated Benjamin Netanyahu to Hamas. Clearly, the pressure was getting to Carl. This year, he claimed that a Scottish vote to leave the United Kingdom would lead to a 'Balkanisation' of Britain, a comment that made him as popular in Edinburgh as the 'Hammer of the Scots', King Edward I.

Despite his subservience to Washington, the feeling wasn't mutual as Wikileaks revealed in 2010. Indeed, classified diplomatic documents showed US diplomats describing him as "stubborn," "arrogant" and having "limited diplomatic skills". They also revealed that former President George W Bush had been told to "play on Bildt's desire to operate at a high level" and to feign respect for his previous international assignments. In 2012, the Stockholm tabloid Expressen claimed that Wikileaks had proof that Bildt has worked as a US spy since the 1970s. Given that no evidence has emerged this report was likely erroneous.

Now it's time to say “adjo” to Carl as the Swedish public decide that they have had enough of both his antics and the Moderate Party. My bet is that, like a bad smell, he won't go away completely and will find roles in various US-sponsored think tanks, a time-honored retirement tradition for Washington's Euro patsies.

However, on September 14, Swedish voters are certain to elect a center-left government and Bildt's veneer of democratic legitimacy will be gone. Bad news for European neo-con movements but excellent news for the safety of civilians everywhere, especially in Ukraine.

He won't be missed.

[tomt]

Very nice Sansui Quad Rear Channel Amp, one of the best ones they made, i think. It is in great condition, all functions and lights work as they should, no scratches or nicks in cabinet, rated at 65 watts RMS per channel continuous.Comes with original instruction sheet, weight is around 35lbs. without packing.


Sansui QS 800A 4 Channel Amplifier | eBay

[tomt]

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[tomt]

Panoramio - Photo of Old Buildings


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[tomt]

DENVILLE — The daughter of John and Joan Bramhall — who both died in an apparent murder-suicide earlier this month — says she feared for her mother's safety in the weeks and months before the deaths.

Lori Bramhall, 53, told NJ.com she called police, asking them to do a welfare check on her parents just two weeks before they were found dead on Aug. 7. Lori Bramhall's son had called his grandparents' home, and Joan Bramhall screamed when John Bramhall apparently pulled the phone away, she said. That prompted both Lori and her son to call police, she said.

"I warned the police," she said. "I warned everyone."

Lori Bramhall also said her brothers removed dozens of guns from John and Joan Bramhalls' Denville home in the days before the deaths — leaving only the one John Bramhall used to kill Joan Bramhall, and then himself. John Bramhall had always had a large collection of firearms, she said.

"He had them under beds, under couches," Lori Bramhall said. I was afraid to go there because of all of those guns."

Lori Bramhall's brothers — John Jr. and Brian, whom the family adopted — have not returned multiple calls seeking comment since their parents' deaths. Denville police have also not yet returned calls made this week seeking confirmation of the request for a welfare check, and information an any involvement they may have had in securing the firearms.

The Morris County Prosecutor's Office has said Joan Bramhall was the victim of a homicide, killed by a gunshot. It also said John Bramhall was killed by a self-inflicted gunshot.

While the prosecutor's office did not explicitly say John Bramhall shot his wife, it did say there were no indications of an intrusion into the home, and there was no continued threat to the community. Sources with knowledge of the investigation have confirmed the incident was believed to be a murder-suicide.

According to their obituaries, John Bramhall was 76, and Joan Bramhall was 78.

Lori Bramhal told NJ.com she'd always had a contentious relationship with her father, a construction company owner: "I hated my father, I hated him. I couldn't stand him." And she said the feeling was mutual.

But Lori Bramhall said her relationship with Joan Bramhall — a longtime fixture of Morris County politics who until last year had been county clerk, and who served on Gov. Chris Christie's transition team after his election — was always warm and affectionate.

"I don't know why he didn't just take himself out," Lori Bramhall said. "Why did he have to take her out too? She was a good woman who worked her whole life."
"I don't know why he didn't just take himself out. Why did he have to take her out too? She was a good woman who worked her whole life." — Lori Bramhall, about her parents' deaths

Lori Bramhall acknowledged she has a history of substance abuse and run-ins with the law, though she said she's been clean for years, attending a treatment program in Brooklyn, where she now lives.

She said her father in recent months wouldn't let her speak to her mother, intercepting calls to the house and telling Joan Bramhall "your addict daughter is on the phone." Lori Bramhall also said her own adult children were cut off as well.

But that didn't apply to all members of the family, Lori Bramhall said. She said her brothers had a better relationship with their father: "I was my mother's favorite, and the boys were my father's.'" One of her brothers had been staying with her parents recently as well, she said.

Lori Bramhall hadn't seen her parents for nearly six months, she said. The last time she went to their house, her father threatened to have her arrested, she said.

In the days before the deaths, John Bramhall sought restraining orders in the Family Division of Superior Court in Morris County against three people — a combination of children and grandchildren, court officials have told the Star-Ledger. Lori Bramhall said the orders applied to herself and to her children. One of three orders was granted, though dismissed after the deaths, court officials said.

Lori Bramhall said John Bramhall had begun telling people Joan Bramhall suffered from dementia — though Lori Bramhall said she doesn't believe that was the case. Obituaries for both Joan and John Bramhall ask that donations be made in their memories to the Alzheimer's Association, at its offices in their town.

John Bramhall had recently asserted more and more control over the couple's lives, Lori Bramhall said. Her father had taken over the household finances, which her mother always handled before that, she said.

Lori Bramhall said she believes her father never really liked or respected women. Lori Bramhall herself was named after an old girlfriend of her father's, she said — and she said that always bothered Joan Bramhall.

John Bramhall didn't like his wife's decades-long involvement in politics, according to their daughter. Other friends of the family and local politicians have told NJ.com John Bramhall would rarely accompany his wife to political functions. But none spoke of any objection John Bramhall may have had to Joan Bramhall's involvement.

"John was uncomfortable in a jacket and tie — he'd tell me that once in a while," Ron DeFilippis — who'd been finance chairman of the Morris County Republican Committee when Joan Bramhall was its vice chairwoman, as well as her campaign treasurer in later years — told NJ.com earlier this month.

Lori Bramhall said when she and her mother had spoken about her father in the past, Joan Bramhall would say John Bramhall "was nothing but a goddamn grouch."

Lori Bramhall described the past few weeks as a struggle with severe depression, and with the temptation to find an escape in drugs.

"I'm not going to get high like I always do. I'm going to stay clean," she said. "Getting high isn't going to solve my problems. I thought about killing myself, but I'm not going to do that to my mother. I'm going to fight for her."






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CJay5
CJay5 3 days ago

There but for the grace of God go I. Enough has been said about this entire situation and it has become even more damaging than it already was. It is time for all the judgmental comments to end.


I didn't want to comment and tried to stop myself many times of the last two weeks. If all the he did this and she did that and he said this and she said that is taken away, John's shooting and killing of Joan is wrong. This was not his choice to make. She was a lovely woman whom I met in the early 1960s when the family lived a few houses away.


Debbie was my childhood friend and as she became a young teenager there seemed to be terrible problems. John was on her with his so called "tough love"? Brian was a sweet, quiet, cute boy who seemed very sad for some reason. Lori was hit by a car in front of our house when she was very young. These are some memories.


John was a hunter as was my dad and they had conversations about hunting. My dad's gun were kept locked in a cabinet, not hidden under furniture. What a strange thing to do--hide guns under furniture.


It seemed something was really wrong with Debbie. What was going wrong? At the time people didn't speak out about these family issues. Debbie seemed to be sent away to live with her dad in Texas? Debbie was taken out of the high school to go to Mt St Dominic--what to live with nuns? Why did she keep disappearing?


My recollection was that Debbie and Brian were Joan's children from her first marriage. John adopted them. Doesn't this make more sense? Why would the Bramhall's just adopt Brian and then where did Debbie come from? She looked like Joan--same coloring, beautiful thick wavy hair, same height. Why would the Bramhall's adopt Brian when they married in 1960 and had Lori in 1961? This doesn't make sense. Debbie and Brain were Joan's children. Not a judgement about Joan's early first marriage, just an observation that may be incorrect. Another concocted story that would better serve Joan's political aspirations.


All I know is something was going terribly wrong with Debbie. Two years ago I learned she died and don't know why. Another daughter with drug problems? I did see John administering that so called "tough love" in a creepy, kind of way. Condescending and arrogant and more like tough hate. I guess it wasn't working then, and it didn't work with Lori, and it didn't work with Lori's children. John was the common factor. I was scared of John and my very intelligent mom suggest not being at their home when John would be home. I saw some bad things growing up in Lake Hiawatha. My other friend's dad would drink prior to coming home, sometimes in a rage. She told me to jump out of her bedroom window so that I didn't get hit with his belt too. Why did I jump and leave her there alone? I regret it to this day. Domestic abuse happens everywhere and in all income levels. It happens in Lake Hiawatha, Arden Way in Denville, and all the way up to the wealthiest homes. Shooting your spouse to kill them no matter what the situation is domestic abuse.


Now I've said what I wanted to say and hope and pray that the family can heal. It is going to take a lot of time and work. There but for the grace of God go I.
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 3 days ago

@CJay5

I'm sorry, but what is "hurtful" is your speculation.Your post is full of questions ....speculation.....and is based on a few things which happened 40-50 years ago, supplemented by speculation..


You are the first one to mention Debbie. Sadly, she was another situation of drug abuse which began very early, was not tolerated , and in her case , predictably ended very badly. No one mentioned her because it is ancient news, has no bearing on this case, and is just more hurtful tragedy


If you read everything closely from those who had first hand knowledge (family or close friends), you will note there have only been several mentions in uninformed, third-party speculative posts of "abuse", but none from the children or grandchildren.


If you re-read the article and Lori's direct quotes, you will see references to John being "grouchy" . Interestingly, the same term used by the grand-daughter to describe her grand-father. No one knows what really happened, but someone being "grouchy" because of children's/grand-children's drug abuse, theft & arrests seems reasonable to us.


And most importantly, There are two children (Brian & John Jr.) who are trying to grieve privately.

Two good boys , with wives & children of their own , who ALSO loved their Father/Grandather/Father-in-Law & Mother/grandmother/mother-in-law . And were loved by them...and never did anything to hurt or embarrass them. They are not posting. They are grieving silently.


They did not start this. The article started this. The "speculators" started this.

Every word posted here hurts them very much . John an Joan are gone.

Why attack the character of a man you knew 40 years ago, why "speculate" ?


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CJay5
CJay5 1 day ago

@30YearFamilyFriend Thank you for letting me know about Debbie. I think this information is relevant to the current situation. Debbie was my close friend when we were growing up. Referring to her drug problem or her death as ancient news is bizarre. How cruel.


Why are Lori and my comments speculation when we were there? You weren't there 40 years ago. You are only a 30 year "friend". The damage was done earlier.


Also I didn't bring up Debbie first, Michelle mentioned her aunt first. Lori didn't say her father was grouchy, she said Joan would say that. Perhaps you need to read again.


My experience is consistent with Lori and Michelle's. My point is there were problems with female members of he family. Why do you continue to bring up Lori's drug addiction in an effort to discredit her? Lori freely admitted she had a problem multiple times.


I would never intend to hurt Brian or John Jr.. Their father has done that, not me. He hurt a lot of people.


You can see clearly that shooting your spouse with the intent to kill is domestic abuse. Isolating your spouse so that they loose contact with family is abuse. This is all mentioned in the various articles. Based on the articles, John seemed to be lucid in his thoughts and actions and he was able to obtain a protective order. The story is public record, I didn't bring the articles forward.


I asked targeted questions in my earlier post. My post is not baseless, incorrect, speculation. It was based on more than 10 years of observations.


Enough of this already. I would love for you to answer the remainder of my questions privately. You seem to have a lot to say publicly that may hurt family members. Go ahead and respond so that you have the last word. It is fine.




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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 1 day ago

@CJay5

30 years plus ..It's just a screen name .


I have read your response , and commenting on your musings about Debbie being hit by a car wouldn't seem to add much to understanding John or this event.


And please tell me .....How is reminiscing about a TOTALLY DIFFERENT neighbor's drinking problem relevant ?


Instead, like you, I'll pose a couple of totally speculative questions:


What evidence do you have that John had anything but love for Debbie (in fact any of his children/grandchildren, adopted or not)....BEFORE their bad behavior and drug abuse began ?


You seem to assume "someone's" treatment of her caused her drug abuse, numerous horrible choices in men, and eventual death .

Why is John the bad guy ?

Did you ever meet Debbie's first husband ?

I first became aware of him when he and another thug tried to beat the daylights out of Debbie's brother for telling her parents about her latest use of hard-core drugs.


"Lack of love" caused these things ?

What evidence can you present that it wasn't the other way around?


Or are you merely "projecting" based on your own bad experiences with some man ??????..





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Michelle
Michelle 1 day ago

@CJay5 @30YearFamilyFriend Thank u Cjay5 for knowing how he was especially towards girls. My grandfather shouldve just taken himself and not her. Why he did it i dont know, but us grandkids and her kids had nothing to do with it. U can say what u want, but like i said u dont know went on behind those walls. And he got a restraining order 7 days before he did this, and the court for it to b set was the day before he did this. Plus there are other odds and ends i will not mention that makes me feel as if he had planned this out for a few months. And 30YearFamilyFriend and the other who want to sit there and post links to something that happened 3 years ago, and talk all sorts of crap about me. U do not know me. I do not do drugs, my babys father is the 1 in prison for 10 years, i am not. So obviously i didnt do anything and dont do drugs. I passed every drug test for 3 years which i did 3 times a week. So stop bringing me up into this and what happened. I already had to and still deal with the fact that it will always b there and never b gone. And that i have to live with that fact that my grandma, or we can say she was my mom living there since i was 8 months old, is gone and i cant talk or see her anymore, which i talked to her every week and visited with my son every month. Dont sit here and say u know JOHN cause u dont, only what u seen on the outside. And im quite sick of all this. Some people need to grow up and act like an adult and stop judging others, cause im sure you arent perfect either!
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 1 day ago

@Michelle

I repeat, I am very sorry for your loss.

You may never forgive your grandfather for taking her.

That is more than understandable.

And you can certainly cry about that.

However, I pray someday, that you understand and admit that your grandfather is not the villain in the rest of your life.

I'm sorry to say, but we both know that there are several others in your life who never treated you half as well.
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Michelle
Michelle 1 day ago

@30YearFamilyFriend @Michelle lol the only 1 who treated me well was my grandma, and that was it!
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 1 day ago

@Michelle

And, you may never believe me, but I know that and , I feel such deep sorrow for you. I have fond memories of you as sweet toddler playing on a lawn at a family function , and would love to see you that happy again.


The whole thing is a terrible tragedy.

But every day is a new day, what's past is past, you now have your own baby to bring you joy, and the wonderful memories of your grandma.

I'll say one more thing.....The disease began to take your Nana well before this happened. That is where this chapter of the tragedy began. Alzheimer's is a horrible, horrible , horrible disease.

Pray for your Nana, and do her proud with the rest of your life.


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CJay5
CJay5 1 day ago

@Michelle @CJay5 @30YearFamilyFriend Hi Michelle. Like you I now have a person attacking me and making claims about me that are without warrant.


You are the one who actually knows what happened behind closed doors. You should be proud that you have your life in order and don't let anyone make you feel bad.


I spoke up to help defend you and your mom against the accusations. I believe you. People make mistakes in life all the time. It is how you deal with the problem that makes the difference.


I never said your grandfather was the bad guy responsible for everything. I said there is a pattern against the girls in the family, that it seemed like something was very wrong in the house that impacted Debbie, and that he did something wrong that he should not have done. I witnessed him being mean to Debbie. That is my frame of reference.


I hope all the best comes your way for you and your son in the future and that you are able to heal somehow. It won't be easy, but don't give up.



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Michelle
Michelle 16 hours ago

@CJay5 i know and i thank u. but when people start to post the article of what happened its like i have to relive the whole thing all over again. and it didnt just impact my aunt debbie, it also impacted my mom. i have no family left except my brothers and i only talk to 2 of them. i am 10 times stronger then my mother, cause i have been through hell and back and i am still making it, idk how i am but i am, and never turned to drugs or alcohol. i have an almost 4 year old son to take care or and to take care of myself. i struggle everyday of my life just to make it, and yes my nana did help me out but what parent doesnt help there child? and i thank her for doing that, cause she didnt have to do any of it. and why my uncles didnt tell any of us about the funeral blows my mind, cause my nana would not have wanted that. she wouldve wanted all us grandkids to b there. but for my uncles kids to go who barely even talked to my nana and saw her like once a year. no1 is perfect and people make mistakes, u grow and learn.
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CJay5
CJay5 6 hours ago

@Michelle @CJay5 Sweetie--I just saw you post. I have to run out for a while. I will reply as soon as I get back around 8:00. I want to read again what you wrote. TTYL
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CJay5
CJay5 1 hour ago

@Michelle @CJay5 Hi Michelle, I'm glad you wrote back. For now, you probably should stop logging on if it is causing you to relive the event. Do you have a visual in your mind? Try to replace it with happier moments. My suggestion is to gather pictures of your grandmother and put them in beautiful frames and make a little area where you can look at those pictures. It would be good to have pictures of happy memories. I like the one of you, Joan, and your son for a start. It shows so much love.


Right now you should be very kind to yourself. You must take good care of yourself.You are the only person who can make sure that you are well taken care of. Do things you like to do. Go for a walk, go hiking cook a nice meal, look at a beautiful sunset, etc. Find something you really like to do that makes you release stress and relax.


When I got divorced, I took care of my son financially by myself. I didn't ask for any alimony. So I made my son my focus. It gave me great strength and I had to work to put a roof over his head, pay the bills, buy the food, cook, clean, do laundry, etc. I was so determined to make all of this happen. Everything did not always go perfectly and I made so many mistakes. Knowing that I had him to take care of though allowed me to accomplish a lot. You are in the same situation and I sense that you have a deep devotion to your son.


For you I am hoping that eventually you can reconnect with other family members. I don't know if this is possible, due to the situation. They may surprise you later on. It is hard to say. You will need to put the situation about the funeral aside. I guess they were concerned that something might go wrong. Go to the cemetery and put flowers and have your own service. If you are religious, you might want to have a priest or minister do a service.


I would like to meet with you to talk directly. I would provide e-mail or phone contact information, but I'm not sure how to do it. Also, try some of the things I mentioned above. These are some of the things I did after my parents passed away.


I found out my parents were both ill with cancer at the same time. My dad lived three weeks. He was my rock and a wonderful man. My mom lived 10 months. She almost died 3 months after my dad, due to a clot in her lung. She pulled through. So we had hospice care for her. She was a PhD nurse and did want to extend her life by having surgery, chemo, or radiation. I had to abide by her wishes and it was a difficult time for all of us in the family. I had not time to grieve my parents as I was the executrix for two estates.


Right after my mother died, one of my best friends was murdered in her home. I didn't find her the next day, her 90 year old parents did. I do have a visual in my mind that is my own creation due to information if found our during the investigation by the detectives. It took 17 months to find the murderer and I thought I would loose my mind due to the stress and not knowing who this terrible person was. I would also imagine that the person knew who I was and I would be next. I don't want to go into any more details. From day to day I didn't know how I was going to survive or what to do. I made it because I am very strong like you. It took me three years to get to a better place.


Let me know if you want to talk. Please take care of yourself and your son the best you can. If you are unable to afford counseling, you might meet with a priest or minister or join a group for grief support. I may best best to work toward forgiving your grandfather, not forget, but forgive so that you can move on. this may take a long time.
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 3 days ago

@CJay5 And PS: Those of us who knew them well, have perfectly reasonable answers to every one of your questions, but see no need to answer them in a public forum. That is why I know your post is full of baseless , incorrect , speculation.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 1 day ago

@30YearFamilyFriend @CJay5 You sound like my MIL. Her young adult granddaughter was raped by her former daughter-in-law's new husband. When he was arrested at work after they confirmed the DNA evidence, all my MIL could say was "how embarrassing for him that he was arrested at work".


DNA evidence proving the rape wasn't the issue, the poor man being arrested at work and "how would it look to them being arrested" was the issue.


The "man" was of sound mind and could process, and made a decision to kill his wife then himself. If you want that to keep happening, hide it. Ignore the signs. Tell the women to shut up. Tell the kids to shut up.


Make it a point of us vs. them, those who hide secrets vs. those who want to know why so that the next tragedy doesn't happen.

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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 1 day ago

@non sequitur

Right , wrong or indifferent, there was only love at the root of this .
You can judge the act, but not knowing them, you can not judge the man.
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CJay5
CJay5 1 day ago

@non sequitur @30YearFamilyFriend @CJay5 Thank you so much non sequitur. You are right on target.
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labstroller
labstroller 4 days ago

yawn.....So much white trash...Nobody cares...honestly, nobody cares. Go on Jerry Springer and leave us alone.
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sm1112
sm1112 4 days ago

each & everyone of you who posted or supported posted links are in my prayers may you one day be granted half the traits you wish/act like you have.
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 4 days ago

@sm1112

To be clear, Lori gave an interview telling her side of a story that goes back 40 years .

In posts , Michelle told a one-sided story of John and berated her Uncles.

Stephen (you?) also weighed in with his one-sided story.

Others, who never met John or Joan , posted wild, baseless-speculation in regards to 1) domestic abuse , 2) "gun nuts" , 3) a chauvinist who was jealous of his wife's success , etc

And Lori's family, all deny the fact that Joan was suffering from a rapidly worsening Alzheimer's even though they hadn't spent much (any?) time with her over the last six months.

They are WRONG, and several doctor's made that assessment. I know because I was at a family wedding not long ago, and when I asked John how Joan was doing, he explained, but not before tear-ing up.

But those family members posting on this site who deny her condition never asked how she was doing , because to them, Joan was merely an ATM.

On the other hand, other family members sadly spent hours searching for her in a Mall when she got "lost".


Those of us who know the other side of the story feel compelled to rebut the nonsense in Lori's version of the story. We're not saying she "lied". She simply doesn't know, or has a one-sided view.


Therefore , no one is "judging" Lori, Michele or Stephen. Friends and neighbors feel that the long-term drug abuse, arrests of several members of the family ....and the stress those things caused the ENTIRE family for over forty years .......have a bearing on the veracity of Lori & her children's warped and distorted view of John. .Their view is biased and distorted , partly because they "hated" John.


In our view, they hated John because he never tolerated , enabled, or excused their past behavior. And we want to point out why ONLY those certain members of a grieving family would take to NJ,Com to attack John.


So, we are not "attacking" Lori or her children, simply calling into question their point of view because of the history that (you?) would like to forget. If they (you?) have reformed themselves ....we are all VERY happy and proud of you. You future will be much brighter than your past .


But this story is about the history of John & Joan, and it appears that none of you will yet admit that your past actions have terribly affected them, and dozens of people. The first step towards redemption is to recognize and accept your past. It seems from your posts, you have not yet done so.


Those of us who knew John and Joan know they loved each other. And although hundreds of people knew them, not ONE person had ever seen them disagree (let alone argue) EXCEPT about how best to deal with Lori & her children .

There was no domestic abuse...EVER.

John was very proud of his wife's career & success. John was not a "gun nut". He was an avid hunter , outdoorsman, and fisherman. The hunting guns he owned were very valuable, and they were hidden because he feared his grandchildren would steal them, and hock them for drugs. They had stolen from him before .

Some in Lori's family may not have agreed with his "rules" , but it was his house that they were invited guests there.

Lori's brothers are not "POS" as Michele called them in posts. They are some of the finest, most upstanding , hardest working , honorable men we know. And it is relevant to tell the world that although Michele disagrees, her uncles never were arrested for having a meth lab in their home.

And Stephen's view of his grandfather just MAY be biased by the fact his grandfather had not forgiven him for his criminal behavior (as demonstrated by the links, and the ones that never hit the newspaper, but which other friends/family know about) . So the posts are there to help tell the "why" of Stephen historical view, not to predict his future or condemn him. .


So, to the disgruntled segment of the family I say:

1) I am terribly sorry for your loss. Your parents/grandparents were wonderful people. Not perfect, but pretty darn close. None of us will ever really know "why" this happened, but the speculation so far is unproductive, uniformed and , WAY off-base.

2) Grieve for your grandparents in private. What is the benefit of trashing your grandfather here ? He's gone. Grant him the forgiveness that you demanded from him.

3) Accept the cost of your past behavior. You may never be able to mend fences. Move on with your lives.

4) And if you REALLY are contrite , want to put the past-in-the-past , and want to honor the memory of your mother/grandmother leave the rest of the family alone to grieve in peace . That is what Joan would have wanted. That is all the others ever wanted, that is all they ever asked from you. A little peace for once. PLEASE !!!!!
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sm1112
sm1112 2 days ago

forgot you lived in that house & were part of the family.
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 2 days ago

@sm1112 I know you are hurt, grieving, and probably scared , so I feel very sorry for you. Your Nana is gone, and you don't know who will bail you out next time. I understand.


I also know that you've had a tough life, but I doubt (in an honest moment) even you could say that the worst of it is John's fault .

I have stopped myself from replying to you several times today because I am not trying to hurt you, but rest assured I won't let you cause any more collateral damage either. There is already enough pain to go around.


Grieve privately, and move on with your life.

Again, I am very sorry for your loss. They were very good people and we will all miss them very much.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 1 day ago

@30YearFamilyFriend @sm1112

You are blaming Lori for her father killing her mother.

I hope whatever religion/moral compass you ascribe to makes you content with that.
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 1 day ago

@non sequitur

Can you read ? Where did I "blame" anyone for Joan's death ? Please quote me directly .


I have simply been calling into question false allegations/speculation by demonstrating why the individuals either didn't know the family, or in the case of family members who are posting, by explaining why they might have a biased point of view.


Those people have not disputed a single fact about their past.

They've asked not to be judged (while they judge their grandfather) . I judge neither them OR their grandfather.

(Perhaps , unlike you, I don't think I'm the all-knowing God who can see into someone's mind & soul ).

They've asked for compassion. I certainly have lots of it.

They've said they've changed . I would be willing to give them another chance.


But I have an allergy to lies.


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sm1112
sm1112 4 days ago

it must be quite easy to sit around & type things you'll never have to say in person. many of you act as if there's no recovering & bettering yourself after a drug charge, you know what you can't recover from? being murdered.
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sm1112
sm1112 4 days ago

I can't help but to notice how many of you are contradicting yourselves talking about how great of a man John was & almost praising him for murdering his wife & then killing himself but throwing shade towards those who made mistakes that harmed nobody.. but then again those looking in from the outside know more than the family .. silly me.
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Lds1019
Lds1019 4 days ago

Harmed nobody?
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sm1112
sm1112 4 days ago

glad you can read. please try to compare a murder suicide to a drug charge right now I would love a laugh.
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Exit26
Exit26 4 days ago

No one is comparing a murder suicide to a drug charge. You shouldn't criticize someone else's reading comprehension abilities when you apparently have a few of your own. There was more than "a drug charge" in that family. And also don't be a fool to think that those who made mistakes harmed nobody.
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230YearFamilyFriendmarla74LikeReply
sm1112
sm1112 4 days ago

if nobody is comparing a murder suicide to drug charges than why are so many links to articles posted?
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Exit26
Exit26 4 days ago

You are the one making the comparison between murder suicide & 'a drug charge'. The links that others provided were to show the character of the people involved.
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sm1112
sm1112 2 days ago

ohh so the only character somebody can have has to be found in their faults? logical
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marla74
marla74 4 days ago

@sm1112 click on the links I posted Hun, the fire department and hazmat team had to come out to diffuse the meth lab Joan and Johns grand daughter Michelle Casella was running in her home, she could have blown up her 15 month old child along with herself and whoever was in her home at the time, and possibly kill or injure her neighbors in the explosion, also lets not forget the fact that she was selling meth which is a horrible addictive drug that kills and destroys lives. How do we know that her meth sales didn't kill anyone or lead to injuries? They also found other drug paraphernalia in her home along with scales and accessories to distribute and sell. She even admitted to purchasing Sudafed which is a meth ingredient. I can also tell by her mug shot photo that she appears to be a meth user, you can see it in her eyes and sunken face. Joan was a wonderful lady and when I met John he was a true gentleman and spoke very highly of Joan's accomplishments! May John and Joan rest in piece!
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sm1112
sm1112 4 days ago

I have no reading comprehension issues, I didn't thoroughly read anything any of you have posted because I'm not perfect like all of you. nobody typing & posting links to articles would be as bold in person. many of you need to take a step off your high horse & step into the light of understanding & respect an issue you do not fully grasp then maybe your paragraphs can be looked at as complete thoughts. for those of you with children when you see them let them know their parents never learned to treat others the way they wanted to be treated & as long as nothing is drug related mommy(/or daddy) will always try to justify the situation! be proud of yourselves for acting like you have the right to throw shade towards people going through such a tragic time & sticking your noses deep into an issue than does absolutely nothing for you besides make you feel better about yourselves from behind the screen.
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sm1112
sm1112 4 days ago

peace*. oops forgot I have reading comprehension issues.. there I go again, silly me thinking somebody would pay half as much attention to grammar than they do to belittling others.
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marla74
marla74 4 days ago

This is Lori's daughter Michelle Casella

Two Arrested after Suspected Meth Lab Found | WNEP.com
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marla74
marla74 4 days ago

michelle casella | WNEP.com
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marla74
marla74 4 days ago

Meth lab taken down by police | News - Home
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marla74
marla74 4 days ago

Neighbors Frustrated Meth Lab Damaging Reputation | WNEP.com
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Exit26
Exit26 5 days ago

Too bad some comments were removed. Too bad a little more research wasn't done before printing this disgustingly one-sided article.
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

Right on fellow neighbor. Those of us who live/lived there and know the family personally( witnessing things first hand) Know the truth. It's time ppl heard the the other side.
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Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com
Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com 5 days ago

@Lds1019 Hi Exit26 and LDS1019 -- We've tried repeatedly to reach out to several other family members, and they haven't returned our calls (which of course they're not obligated to do -- they're dealing with a very difficult situation right now, too). If there's more to say that would shed more light on situation, we'd of course want to reflect that. If you were close to the family, or knew someone else who was and who would be willing to speak on the record, please feel free to contact me at [email protected].
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

Thank- you for the offer, but I have shared enough information for your educated readers to put the pieces of information together from those of us who knew Joan and John. They don't even have to take our word for it, they can google how Lori and her family have had run in after run in with the law. I'm not saying it's the grandchildren s fault, they were already at a disadvantage being born to a drug addicted mother. Again, I am not passing judgement, but it is a fact that these type of children struggle with learning disabilities and are prone to drugs just by the nature of the situation. For whatever reason, Lori chose the wrong path in life multiple times and her parents and siblings were there time and time to pick up the pieces. It boggles my mind to think stranger think John was a bad person, when Lori admidettly stated her parents raised all six of her children. How many parents would do that? Once, twice, but six times? How were joan and John repaid? By grandchildren who cost them a great deal of money bailing their tails out of jail multiple times. John and Joan were finally on the same page when Stephen stole a substantial amount of money; he was the last one to be kicked out. This family has endured more than anyone could imagine; even Mother Teresa would have thrown up her hands. Sadly, Joan was not in good health in the final weeks and while it is not up to us to pass judgement as to what happened, I want ppl to know that John was loud, and after giving someone the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to change their life, he did wash his hands of Lori and her children. But he was at the same time a man of good character, and he was a generous and giving man. Those close to the family thought Joan should have practice tough love too, but as a mother she found it hard to turn her back. It's not a secret that she looked for the good in everyone; espevially her children and grandchildren. John and Joan may the two of you find eternal peace together in heaven. I can't think of two ppl who deserve it more than the both of you!
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Michelle
Michelle 4 days ago

@Lds1019 U knew JOHN from outside his house not went on inside it. I dont know who u are and i honestly dont care. But sitting here and putting stuff that has NOTHING to do with the fact that he went and did what he did to her was the act of a SICK AND DERANGED MAN and someone who had to have had something wrong with them. AND IF U KNEW THEM SO WELL U WOULD KNOW SHE RAISED 4 GRANDKIDS NOT 6, So now u are pulling all types of information outta ur a--..... And u say kids born to drug addict parents are prone to doing drugs, HONEY I DONT DO DRUGS, U can sit there and read what u want in the paper about me, but am i in jail? No... Do i still have my kid? YES. They dont UPDATE the story to what really happened with everything do they??? Yes i went through HELL from today to back when i was younger growing up with my grandparents. My grandma was the best thing on earth and was ALWAYS there. Yes ive had money troubles, i am a single mother with NO help elsewhere. I have done what i need to do to better myself for me and my son! I was very very close with my nana, my grandfather was just a grouch every second of every day. It is NOT our fault that they had to raise us, but im glad that my nana raised us cause i can tell u, i wouldnt b where i am now. All you people on here are talking all sorts of crap and its very upsetting that i have to sit here and read all this. This happened 2 weeks ago and trying to get through day by day and not have to worry about something NEW that people are saying in comments or even to the news. Dont sit here and judge me or my siblings, u DO NOT KNOW US AND WHAT WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH. Read what u want, and believe what u want. I myself and whoever knows all of us, know the real story and what happened in the days BEFORE this all happened, which i am not my mother and am not gonna sit here and say because i have more respect for my nana. My grandfather on the other hand is another issue. i can go on and on, but im not because im sick of this little kid he said she said junk on here... U are all adults, ACT IT AND GROW UP!
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marla74
marla74 4 days ago

@Michelle @Lds1019 Two Arrested after Suspected Meth Lab Found | WNEP.com sorry hun but this pretty much says it all, I don't believe a word you say about your Grandparents. I found John to be a lovely person and when I met him he seemed so proud of your Grandma!
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non sequitur
non sequitur 1 day ago

@marla74 @Michelle @Lds1019 John List was a lovely person.
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Michelle
Michelle 1 day ago

@marla74 @Michelle @Lds1019 Good for u Marla! U are judging based on a article of what happened. If i did it, why am i not in prison and have my child still??? Tell me that? And thats the fakeness of a man hiding!
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sm1112
sm1112 4 days ago

right on fellow neighbor!! murder/suicide is ok! God forbid somebody made a mistake pertaining to drugs. ignorance must be bliss.
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 5 days ago

It is sad that NJ.com only has one side of this story, but Joan and John's real, loving, family are not posting . They are too busy grieving.

Out of respect for the Bramhall family, those of us who know the real background to this story , have not disclosed what we know , but thinking people can put two & two together .

The request for donations to the Alzheimer's foundation is important.

The troubled, and estranged daughter , is important .

The fact that the Bramhalls raised several grandchildren due to their daughter's addiction, tells you what type of people they both were , and is important .


We all know that people with drug problems often see things through the prism of their cravings and addiction.

We also know that a mother's love can sometimes transcend repeated transgressions, and can too often end up enabling those with addictions.


A father can only be stolen-from so many times by his children and grandchildren before he disowns them

John was a great and big-hearted man, and very warm in his own way, but he was also a tough-love guy.

The daughter "hated" him. That's important to remember.


John loved and was proud of his wife , and her accomplishments until the end.....I know because he often told his friends glowing stories of her political success


Here's a hint .........The family of whiners on this site are only interested in three things ....

1) The Money, 2) the money, 3) the money
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3survivedthereignofterror1marla74Exit26LikeReply
Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

Amen! It's time those who knew John and John set the record straight.
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marla74
marla74 5 days ago

I had met Joan a few times at various political and county events over the years and had the chance to meet John once and they were wonderful people! I cant stand to see her daughter and granddaughter on here slandering their family. I did a quick google search of the grand daughter on here commenting about how horrible her grandfather was and found out she is a meth addict that was arrested for operating a meth lab in her home while her young baby was in the house! im pretty sure it is the same girl because the mugshot looks just like her photo on this forum! I wouldn't believe anything these people say about two lovely people! no wonder they were not invited to the funeral!

Police: Parents of toddler operated meth lab in house | PoconoRecord.com
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Exit26
Exit26 5 days ago

You should Google the son too & see what you find. Apparently the apples didn't fall far from the tree.
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 5 days ago

@marla74 Thank you, Marla for pointing out some very important facts .
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

You are 100% correct
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Michelle
Michelle 5 days ago

Please delete this. This story isn't about me or my brothers... for 1 stop believing everything u read in the papers. I have never n will NEVER do drugs because of my mother. If u actually knew who I am then u would know i am against drugs but only a pos with no life would go n stoop so low to actually go n Google names n then post a link for all to see. My nana was my mother I have lived with her since I was 8 months old my grandfather I can careless about. U may know him but u DO NOT know what went on beyond those walls. All u saw was the fakeness of a man who pretended to act nice to your face. I left that house when I was 17 n living on my own paying my own way n helping 2 of my siblings out with places to stay. I talked to my nana EVERY week n visited her with my 4 year old son every month or so.. so before u ppl go n say this n that please get your facts straight first cause this is getting out of control.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 1 day ago

@Michelle Very soon this will all lead to a lawsuit against the Star Ledger.
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jimlaregina
jimlaregina 6 days ago

"Lori Bramhall's brothers — John Jr. and Brian, whom the family adopted — have not returned multiple calls seeking comment since their parents' deaths."

Why bother to point out that Brian was adopted? Perhaps he is also left-handed, unusually tall, or a heck of a Canasta player, but this article makes no mention of any such thing about him. Yet the author feels it necessary to say the Bramalls adopted Brian. How come?
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530YearFamilyFriendLds1019TiggerFan2Exit26LikeRepl y
Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

Funny Lori mention that Brian was adopted. I knew them for more than 10 years before that was disclosed. Brian was as much a part of the family as the biological children. One fact that wasn't mentioned, was that John was prouder of Brian than he was of his drug addicted daughter. Hum, do I detect some jealousy, Lori ?
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Michelle
Michelle 4 days ago

@Lds1019 U NEED A BETTER HOBBY!
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This comment has been deleted
Michelle
Michelle 6 days ago

@ridoffools wow thats a messed up thing to say
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Exit26
Exit26 6 days ago

As a long time former resident of Arden Rd, I find this article to be disgusting. No one's family is perfect but Lori Bramhall & her children should stop airing their side of their family's dirty laundry.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 1 day ago

@Exit26 The question is, why did this guy kill his wife?

Does it matter whether:

- he was continually abusing his wife and others, or

- he freaked out because his wife was losing her memory and ability to function?


Well, it does if you don't want it to happen again.


And it does if you think that hiding guns around your house is NOT NORMAL.
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Michelle
Michelle 1 day ago

@non sequitur @Exit26 I wouldnt call it hiding guns when they were under the bed and in the attic and closets.
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Exit26
Exit26 1 day ago

I said the article is disgusting. It's poorly written and goaded Lori Bramhall on. The author states that calls made to her brothers & Denville Police Dept were not returned. Why do you think that is? The author obviously knew he wouldn't get any info for a story from them.
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oldtimer
oldtimer 6 days ago

Sick/deviant man killed a good woman

end of story
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non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@oldtimer Just like the Lanza murder spree, let's just say "end of story" and not try to prevent it in the future. Are you a large flightless bird from Africa?
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Pearl08082004
Pearl08082004 6 days ago

What a tragedy. I hope that Lori finds the strength to push through and that she focuses on being there for HER children. It's sad to me when families are torn apart by past issues that they just cannot get over. My family has had issues too, but to me, life is too short. Live your life for the people who are THERE, and don't worry about those who just bring negativity. My sincere condolences for their loss.
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2sickofit
2sickofit 6 days ago

I remain puzzled that apparently the experts are unable to determine conclusively that she was murdered by her husband.
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Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com
Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com 6 days ago

Hi @2sickofit . I don't know that it's a matter of them not determining it, just them not saying it. The prosecutor's office put out a statement identifying John Bramhall's death as a suicide by gunshot, and Joan's a homicide by gunshot, but didn't explicitly say he shot her. We asked for a confirmation/clarification, but they didn't issue any further statement after that.
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2sickofit
2sickofit 6 days ago

@Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com @2sickofit It seems unusual, doesn't it? It's been a while now. What could be the motivation behind their lack of response/clarification?
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BritishBanker
BritishBanker 6 days ago

This is a perfect example, When you live in a nice low crime area and someone in the house owns a gun, that gun is more likely to be used against someone in that home rather than an imaginary intruder.
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6ex-NewJerseyanServus2sickofitSunflowerseedzLikeReply
frankbooth23
frankbooth23 6 days ago

@BritishBanker that is simply a fact. period.
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DoogoDecneliS
DoogoDecneliS 4 days ago

@frankbooth23 That he made up, being anti-gun. Total BS.
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LakepPuke
LakepPuke 6 days ago

Reality show exploitation.
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Luc Saldist
Luc Saldist 6 days ago

Why remove dozens of guns but leave one gun? One gun is all it takes. Someone said to move on from this tragedy and I believe the family would like some privacy as they have to live with what happened for years to come. Hopefully someone who is suffering from similar circumstances can learn that the results can be different.
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monilove24
monilove24 6 days ago

@Luc Saldist It's feasible that they didn't know about it.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@monilove24 @Luc Saldist Or he just bought it. Due diligence would be for the cops to see when he bought the gun - though obviously the restraining orders were temporary so likely if it was a "new" gun it was bought after the other guns were removed from his house.
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

The daughter is the one giving interviews. Not the brothers. Why is that?
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monilove24
monilove24 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1 What difference does it make?
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

She's keeping it in the public eye not them. My comment was in response to a post above who asked that the family be left alone to move forward. To which I agree.
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monilove24
monilove24 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1 Her mother was an accomplished woman yet somehow she didn't escape that horrible fate. Her daughter's decision to discuss her mother's life may help other women in less ideal circumstances make a decision that could possibly save their lives. There's nothing wrong with that.
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

Only that it doesn't come from the source. This is a daughter who suffered addiction, hated her father.

There is no evidence other then the daughters side.

I consider what she says but can't say it is whole truth, partial truth or a lie.

Maybe the husband couldn't endure seeing his accomplished wife deteriorate. Maybe they discussed this option privately. Who knows?
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monilove24
monilove24 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1 "Maybe the husband couldn't endure seeing his accomplished wife deteriorate. Maybe they discussed this option privately..."


Was that the husband's decision to make?




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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

Maybe they discussed this privately is what I said. They does not make one.

I am just putting out a thought. Not a fact.
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monilove24
monilove24 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1 Didn't say you did. But what I've read these types of sentiments before.


Why is it so hard to believe that domestic violence crosses all socio-economic barriers. Affluent people are never willing to discuss it...Ms. Bramhall's daughter has seemingly made some very uncomfortable by bringing the issue to the forefront.


It is very disheartening to read the comments discussing her problems with addiction rather than the loss of her mother.
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

The reason she is being discussed is the story is about what she thinks. Of course domestic violence crosses all boundaries. Who said that is hard to believe.
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monilove24
monilove24 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1 Aren't all news article interviews about what the person being interviewed thinks?


And when someone discusses domestic violence with you or you think of people in domestic violence situations...what images do you see in your mind? I'd venture to say you see people living in the inner city or trailer parks wearing sleeveless t-shirts and drinking cheap beer rather than someone living in an affluent neighborhood and wearing designer clothes.
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

I'd venture to say you know nothing of me at all. Stop projecting what you think as being what I think
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monilove24
monilove24 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1 I must have touched a nerve.
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

No. You reply to everything I post as if I said something other then I did. I don't appreciate people putting words or thoughts on me that I do not say or think.

You're sole focus is domestic violence. I have not heard any thing proven to suggest it. I wonder about this being a mercy killing. Prominent go getter woman, well known, respected reduced to what by dementia. Terrible scenario. Quite honestly I'd consider death before losing it completely.

Who knows?

I am sure there is more to it all but really this is more private and should be handled in the family. Not the news cycle.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@monilove24 @survivedthereignofterror1 No, and it smacks of John List's decision to "help his family out".


And perhaps there are financial reasons in this case too.
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Michelle
Michelle 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1 Because my uncles are POS..... They want to act like they are perfect when in reality they are not. They didnt even tell us when the funeral was and supposedly had a private 1 to find out that there were politicians there, and my cousins, which were my uncles kids. How is they were allowed to go and us grandchildren, WHO GREW UP WITH THEM since we were VERY YOUNG, she was basically our mother. And my grandfather can rot, i can careless. He was a very very mean man, which lead my mother to do what she has done and also my aunt, who passed away maybe 3-4 years ago.
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

I am very sorry for your loss
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

Haven't you, your mother and siblings caused your family enough heartache. Tell the truth Michelle as to the real reason you guys weren't invited. Perhaps start with the very large sum of money Stephen stole from your grandparents.
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 5 days ago

@Luc Saldist Or maybe their estranged , drug addicted, daughter simply got it wrong since she hadn't been in the house for years and would have absolutely no way of really knowing.

Like much of what she posted , it is one sided, and most likely incorrect.


While I have sympathy for those with addictions (the daughter and grandchildren have all had run-ins with the law and drugs) , my pity does not make what they say "true" , nor is everything they do "good", nor in he best interests of those who love them and have done everything humanly possible to help them get their lives on track .


The same grand-daughter who proclaims her love of her grandmother probably would say she loved her 15 month old baby ...the one that she had in her house wile operating a meth lab.


Sad, pitiable, worthy of our attempts to help....Yes.

A truthful and reliable source or the story.....Not likely.
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Stephen Bramhall
Stephen Bramhall 6 days ago

no one spoke about how my uncles didn't invite my mom or my brothers and sister to my grandmothers funeral
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

I am sorry for your loss. Sounds like bad blood between the family. I am sorry you are caught up in the sibling/parent dynamic here.

Advice from me is to make your own mind up. Don't necessarily listen to the side of a former addict exclusively. They truly do have their own version which they believe to be true and it may not be.

Been there...done that
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byebyejc
byebyejc 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1 Just because his mom FORMERLY abuse drugs doesn't mean that she cannot state how she was treated. Maybe the way that her dad treated her drove her to drugs. None of us know the family or the family's past history. You are correct in stating that he should make up his own mind when it comes to the relationship with the rest of the family but remember that is his mom that you are speaking about and he knows if his mom is telling the truth or not and whether his grandmother backed up those stories and if he witnessed the relationship between his mother and grandfather.
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

Ever deal with a past or present addict. Versions of life differ.
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byebyejc
byebyejc 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1

yes I have, family members and non family and some do remember events differently and some remember exactly. You cannot put everybody in the same boat.
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

I never put everyone in one group. Of course people are different.
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Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com
Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com 6 days ago

Hi, @Stephen Bramhall. I spoke to your mother about a number of things beyond what made it into the article. My supervisor and I talked through what we felt was appropriate to include here, and we decided to restrict the article to information that might help give some context to your grandparents' deaths, but not get into ongoing family issues or conflicts among those left behind.

My condolences to you, your mother and everyone else touched by this.
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3bayshore ladymonilove24survivedthereignofterror1LikeReply
Ireallyhatelawyers
Ireallyhatelawyers 6 days ago

@Stephen Bramhall So hold your own memorial service. It won't be the first time that's been done. Celebrate her life with your immediate family.


Airing your family's dirty laundry for the whole world to see is probably not something your grandmother would have wanted.
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230YearFamilyFriendsurvivedthereignofterror1LikeRe ply
non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@Ireallyhatelawyers @Stephen Bramhall


My mother didn't want our dirty laundry aired. She told me that if I told on my brother, that he caused my broken shoulder, that *I* would be taken away by the police. Silence is golden, right?


It is HER decision to speak up, just as, per her son, it was her brothers' decision to not invite her to the funeral. Let her decide on her own. And likely she might help a few people, like my friend who has parents dealing with similar issues.
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Ireallyhatelawyers
Ireallyhatelawyers 6 days ago

@non sequitur @Ireallyhatelawyers @Stephen Bramhall No silence is not golden. But don't whine about not being invited to your grandparents' funeral to the newspapers. Hold your own service. The brothers probably felt that the sister and her family were just going to create havoc and wanted the funerals over without any more publicity.
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Michelle
Michelle 6 days ago

@Ireallyhatelawyers @non sequitur @Stephen Bramhall Excuse me???? We had EVERY right to go and to say goodbye. And its not the same, obviously!
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non sequitur
non sequitur 1 day ago

@Michelle @Ireallyhatelawyers @non sequitur @Stephen Bramhall Nah, not having the bodies and burying them is okay.


Who decides who has the right to "ownership" of loved ones?

I watched a friend of mine, a very dear friend I knew all my life, have her plug pulled by her nephew. He had medical POA, which trumped her living will which said that ALL MEANS NECESSARY should be used to keep her alive.


She was on a respirator due to a pulmonary embolism, but otherwise was fine. People are sick.
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

Your uncles didn't invite you because you cause your grandparents nothing but hardship and pain. Tell the readers how you stole $15k from their home, while they were out earning an honest living. Or how you would take the car they bought you and drive it into the corner if their brick home. If you want to post, try something new.... Tell the truth.
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Michelle
Michelle 5 days ago

Where u pulling this out of? Lol all I can do is laugh at these ridiculous comments... Louis please delete these ppl r going WAY out of the real reason what happened n blowing it out of proportion.... just cause u said u lived down the St doesn't mean u know the truth
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Michelle
Michelle 4 days ago

@Lds1019 LMFAO... U HAVE NO DAMN LIFE DO U??? FOR 1 I DIDNT LIVE THERE WHEN I HAD MY LICENSE I LEFT AS SOON AS I TURNED 17... LIVING ON MY OWN SINCE. AND I DIDNT STEAL 15K IM NOT THAT FREAKING STUPID! HOW OLD ARE U, 2???? ITS TIME TO GROW UP AND FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO DO
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careforyou
careforyou 4 days ago

@Michelle @Lds1019 The comments you post really should be held as a private conversation . The sad story here is of the death of 2 people , 1 a victim . The circumstances of your life are not really interesting to anyone but you . It's very selfish to post the hate and hurt you are feeling right now in a public forum . I'm sure the resentment runs very deep and especially a time enduring the loss of someone you loved . Please take a deep breath before posting , once in print it can be retrieved forever. This includes during a time when your children may read all of this , consequently there may be a time in your life when all of this may heal and you will resent the very things you publish .
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non sequitur
non sequitur 1 day ago

@careforyou @Michelle @Lds1019 It's not looking like the Bramhalls raised their kids right, not one of them
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monilove24
monilove24 6 days ago

I wish Lori the best in her recovery in dealing with the loss of her mother and her sobriety.
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oldtimer
oldtimer 6 days ago

@monilove24 my advice to her would be to crack open a beer at home and let her emotions out.

havng total strangers shame you at these crazy meetings will not help her in the longrun.
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morris75
morris75 6 days ago

"But none spoke of any objection Joan Bramhall may have had to Joan Bramhall's involvement." ???
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Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com
Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com 6 days ago

@morris75 That was a typo -- thanks for the catch. It's been fixed.
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morris75
morris75 6 days ago

@Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com @morris75 No problem. If it wasn't for spell check, you would think I was a 5 year old playing on his fathers computer!!!
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byebyejc
byebyejc 6 days ago

@morris75 @Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com morris 75, spell check would not have caught there, think before you try to be a smarty pants!!!
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byebyejc
byebyejc 6 days ago

@morris75 @Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com


my error..."caught that" not there! Just in case you want to spell check me, I caught my own error.
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morris75
morris75 6 days ago

@byebyejc @morris75 @Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com HAHAHA, I can just imagine your horror when you realized you made a mistake and couldn't fix it before the allowed 3 min. Then you felt the need to write under it.

I wasn't saying spell check would of caught "there". I was just saying "There" no one is perfect and that I have horrible spelling. I was making fun of myself. How is "there". Is "there" smarty pants enough for you.

I knew Louis made an honest mistake and was just pointing it out.
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revrevised
revrevised 6 days ago

Time to let this go.
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jayel579
jayel579 6 days ago

Wait this is the drug addict daughter, right?
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mabber2000
mabber2000 6 days ago

@jayel579 clean for many years. Please read the story. Murder/suicide. Well respected woman. Why must people always bring something negative into a story. If you can't say anything nice don't say it at all. Give credit for being clean. She is not saying only a few months. She is saying years.
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monilove24
monilove24 6 days ago

@jayel579 @mabber2000 Must people politicize everything?
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2bayshore ladybyebyejcLikeReply
Mary Beth Jahn
Mary Beth Jahn 6 days ago

Recovery is an ongoing journey throughout the rest of your life. An addict has to work at staying clean and sober every day, as do alcoholics.
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2bayshore ladysurvivedthereignofterror1LikeReply
non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@jayel579 @mabber2000 And people wonder why it is important not to require job applicants to list whether they had been arrested or not and for what...
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oldtimer
oldtimer 6 days ago

@jayel579 @mabber2000 junkies cause so much damage to everyone around them.
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mcbush
mcbush 6 days ago

This is so sad. Obviously this man had a history of domestic violence yet he was still allowed to possess firearms. How did he manage to get a restraining order against his family? People ignore the signs before it's too late. I hope people read this and take heed to those around them. And I hope the family can heal after this.
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2calicofrankbooth23LikeReply
non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@mcbush Articles like this are needed to help people understand the signs, and find out when they need help.


IIRC, the police visited one particular mass shooter's home within a few days of him flipping out and killing a bunch of people. They thought he was "fine". Educating not only the public but the police and the judges about such cases is important.


My spouse and I are watching "Soap" and the way they treat mental illness, granted in a comedy vein, is very true to life. TV is over-dramatized now focusing on the results not how people get there.
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

How is it obvious he had a history of domestic violence?

I have not read anything of that other then the word of a daughter who hated her father by her own admission.

We don't know their lives. It would seem logical that he took over the finances if his wife had dementia. I would imagine there is a diagnosis of that by a doctor

Very sad airing dirty laundry on those who can not express their side of things.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1 There were interviews with people she knew who said that she had become slightly more forgetful, like lost her train of thought in conversation, BUT that she was able to recover quickly (like any other senior without dementia) and continue the conversation easily.


Most people who get dementia as they become elderly can't turn it on and off, it is due to brain damage.


So - had she been isolated? Had people not seen her for a while?


However, if she was being controlled by her husband, she may have been more than a little distracted. It is possible that he or both of them had dementia.
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frankbooth23
frankbooth23 7 days ago

" John Bramhall had always had a large collection of firearms, she said."


The mentality of any gun "enthusiast" will eventually become the deranged mind of John Bramhall.


period.
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Milliwatt Rob
Milliwatt Rob 7 days ago

@frankbooth23 There are a lot of gun owners and collectors who are perfectly sane. The problem is, if and when they go over the edge, they have the means to do much damage.
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4thelols
4thelols 7 days ago

@frankbooth23 And if he had no guns, then sleeping pills do the job. Or a knife. Or car exhaust.

You're looking at it from the wrong angle.
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PookieButt
PookieButt 7 days ago

@frankbooth23 Keeping guns under the couch and bed were telltale signs she was married to a lunatic. And at the end of the day. John's Second Amendment Rights did not inure to Joan's benefit.
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2non sequiturServusLikeReply
survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

Generalize much?
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Ireallyhatelawyers
Ireallyhatelawyers 7 days ago

Aaaah yes -- isn't the airing of a dysfunctional family's dirty laundry wonderful?
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1Milliwatt RobLikeReply
Servus
Servus 6 days ago

@Ireallyhatelawyers A dysfunctional family with a lot of guns. Although I would wager that more often than not someone with a "collection" of guns is part of a dysfunctional family regardless... lol
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non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@Ireallyhatelawyers It could help others. It could save someone else's life.


You sound like a 1950s relic - "most of all we've got to hide it from the kids".
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

We are only hearing one side from a daughter who hated her father. There could be many reasons for her hate. Ever deal with an addict.

They always have their own version making them the sympathetic victim.
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230YearFamilyFriendIreallyhatelawyersLikeReply
Ireallyhatelawyers
Ireallyhatelawyers 6 days ago

@non sequitur @Ireallyhatelawyers This is just another case of public family bashing from the perspective of an estranged, recovering-addict daughter who is trying to validate herself. "I'm going to tell the world what kind of monster Daddy was!" Instead of talking to a reporter from NJ.com, she should be talking to a grief counsellor or her sponsor.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@Ireallyhatelawyers @non sequitur Really? Instead of trying to help other families who might be in a similar situation and not know whether to call the police or seek professional intervention?


Every murder/suicide of a couple is assumed to be "they fought, he pulled a gun, shot her, and then killed himself". In this case, the police were already involved because there were restraining orders. The question is, I wonder about the restraining order - was it clear both of the deceased wanted the restraining orders? Can one person who lives in a household get a restraining order against the will of a spouse living in the same household?


Something seems very odd about the restraining order taken out the day before she was killed. The circumstances of that restraining order and whether she was present and cognizant would be interesting and possibly set a precedent in cases of restraining orders pertaining to households with more than one adult.
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PookieButt
PookieButt 7 days ago

When people own lots of guns, eventually, the guns will be turned on someone. I don't get the fascination. If you want to own a gun, fine. But why collect them? Sort of crazy.
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2Servusfrankbooth23LikeReply
Milliwatt Rob
Milliwatt Rob 7 days ago

@PookieButt Not sure of the relevance of your comment to this case in particular. If you read the story, his children removed the entire collection except for one gun from the house. This crime only required one gun.
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14thelolsLikeReply
Servus
Servus 6 days ago

@Milliwatt Rob @PookieButt And then either sold them or turned them in at one of those "guns for cash" events? Or are they sitting in one or both of the sons homes? Just get rid of those tainted guns completely.
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BEFootball2009
BEFootball2009 7 days ago

@PookieButt - I tend to agree. I have no problem with people owning guns in their home for protection (though I question the actual need for most people). While I would not support a legal limit on the number owned, I do think people who own multiple guns like this in the 5, 10, 20 ranges are oddballs. Then again, that probably applies to any collecting since there is something compulsive about owning so many of one thing that you will almost never use.
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22sickofitServusLikeReply
2sickofit
2sickofit 6 days ago

@BEFootball2009 @PookieButt True -- although I don't think stamps ever killed anyone.
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

If you have been following this story, you would have read he was an avid hunter.
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Sandy
Sandy 7 days ago

Can someone please get Lori some help? She admits to thinking about suicide, that is a definite sign that she needs help!!
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3mia1013non sequiturSam SungLikeReply
survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

I feel bad for her children who have to listen to that and live with it.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 7 days ago

Very sad. I assume they could tell about Alzheimer's or dementia post-mortem. But even if it was a murder/suicide pact, most couples would leave a note from each person detailing their decision.

The thing is, if your loved one is showing signs of dementia (completely ignoring whether the murderer was a vicious deluded bastard), get them checked out. Dementia and similar symptoms such as memory loss can be related to changes in prescription medications or other illnesses. The first course of action is to go to the doctor, review all medications, and do blood work and tests. If he "made the diagnosis" himself without a doctor and without following up with a doctor, then yes, he was a truly evil man. You cannot discount business being poor for him as well, especially if she had her hopes set on travel (conjecture).


I am always surprised that my MIL survived her father, who not only beat her mother and emotionally and verbally abused her, but actually punched my MIL in the face when she was 16 and tried to protect her mother (her mother was one of the nicest people on Earth). Yet no one wants to interfere - my spouse and his mom knew what his grandfather was, but no one thinks "this might lead to murder".


Ms. Bramhall, be well and do your best to stay away from people and things that might lead you back to drugs. The world needs sober people.
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bayshore lady
bayshore lady 7 days ago

@non sequitur The family cannot force their relative to seek medical treatement if they don't want to.It's easy to say "take them to the doctor,"but often much harder to do it.A person becomes an adult at 18,and doesn't lose the right to make their own decisions,and that right doesn't expire,unless a court says it does.Hindsight is 20/20.Perhaps Mrs. B should have realized thst her life was in danger,and left her husband.A very dad story/
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1Sam SungLikeReply
non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@bayshore lady @non sequitur If the person was regularly going to the doctor, they could be convinced to go. And if someone in their right mind (not that the gentleman was in his right mind) was very worried, that person could call a doctor and ask them to stop by.


Look - I know someone who got their spouse committed involuntarily, in NY state, with NO doctors' note or anything. She told her husband that they were visiting, for both of them to move in to the "apartment part" of a senior complex, but instead he ended up locked into an Alzheimer's ward. Don't act like it doesn't happen in real life, by well-meaning individuals.
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bayshore lady
bayshore lady 6 days ago

@non sequitur @bayshore lady All I can say,from experience,is that you cannot force an adult yo go to the doctor if they don't want to.Sure,some people are very creative,and can trick them into seeing a doctor.
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

His business was thriving. Any financial issues were a result of paying for rehab and bailing ppl out of jail, attorney fees, and being robbed by drug addicted family members.

There was a medical diagnoses that family and friends were apprise to; however ppl who knew Joan didn't need a formal diagnosis.

After what these two have been through, I am so happy they will both have eternal peace. Because their " loving daughter and her children " put them through HELL.
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130YearFamilyFriendLikeReply
BEFootball2009
BEFootball2009 7 days ago

I can appreciate the news value of the prior concerns and that the police were called for a welfare check. However, I am not sure I see the news value of the all encompassing interview (with someone who acknowledges drug and mental illness issues) that discusses the internal family problems, which child was the favorite, and the tensions between the children/parents. I realize Lori freely spoke about it, and was probably rambling at times; but I do not think it is appropriate for publication.
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3survivedthereignofterror1IreallyhatelawyersOrange DevilsLikeReply
Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com
Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com 7 days ago

@BEFootball2009 Hi, BEFootball2009. I appreciate your concerns, but I'll explain our thinking. We felt in particular, it was worthwhile to discuss the welfare check and the guns in the house (as well as Lori saying they were removed, which might suggest some concern about them being there). Those seemed very relevant, given what ultimately happened.

But we also thought, in particular since Lori's the only family member to go on the record with us so far, we should put the nature of her relationship with her parents in context, so people can judge for themselves what to make of her account. Is she the only one of the siblings who felt this way? Did anyone else have concerns? Did her difficult history with her father cloud her judgment about what was going on in the household ... or did it possibly tune her into things other people were missing? We can't answer those questions, in particular without hearing more sides from more people close to the situation, but we thought we should give the readers what information we had to judge for themselves.
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3byebyejcmcbushSam SungLikeReply
MWilson14
MWilson14 7 days ago

@Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com @BEFootball2009 Sorry, this is a stupid article. It's fine to talk about the guns, but by focusing on the daughter so much, including her own depression and suicidal thoughts, you are just pushing her more and more to the edge. I hope nothing bad happens to her now that you "outed" her so much. Bad job.
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1calicoLikeReply
non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@MWilson14 @Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com @BEFootball2009 It might help someone else. And to know others have difficult situations can help.
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

She made the choice to air her dirty laundry. She gets what she deserves.
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130YearFamilyFriendLikeReply
Shannon
Shannon 7 days ago

@Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com @BEFootball2009 This is probably the trashiest article I've ever read on this site. It is not appropriate to be writing about someone's mental state and posting it on this site. And I do believe I remember a writer on NJ.com explaining that it is illegal to report on a suicide if it was done in a private home (lets here the endless excuses). That doesn't apply here? Permission from the family or not-this article is disgusting and should be removed. Maybe you should try being a human being and alert authorities next time someone tells you they think about killing themselves. How's that for judgement?
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2MWilson14Loren FitzgeraldLikeReply
Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com
Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com 7 days ago

@Shannon I think you may have misunderstood what another writer said about reporting suicides. There's nothing illegal about it. The question is whether it's a responsible choice, and that varies a lot with the circumstances.


Our philosophy, like that of most news organizations, is that a death isn't made newsworthy simply by being a suicide, any more than heart attack is automatically newsworthy. But if there are other circumstances that make it worth reporting, we take a close look and decide what to do from there.

In this case, the suicide was in conjunction with a homicide — and homicides are pretty much always newsworthy. We wouldn't shy away from a story that involces a suicide in that case.

In this case, one of the deceased was also a very notable figure in local politics. We'd be writing a story about her death even from natural causes, because she had such an impact on the area.

There are other times when a suicide might be newsworthy. For instance, Tyler Clementi's death was believed to have been influenced in large part by Dharun Ravi's invasion of his privacy. Morristown teen Lennon Baldwin killed himself shortly after bullying incidents many believed were a factor. The broader circumstances, the criminal investigations into others involve, the impact on the community -- that all made those deaths worth reporting, as far as we're concerned.


Whether to report on a suicide isn't always an easy choice, and it's not one we make lightly. Others won't always agree with the decisions we make, and we respect that. But I'm always glad to explain the thinking behind them.
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22sickofitmorris75LikeReply
Iz11
Iz11 7 days ago

@BEFootball2009 In some way I was interested in the daughters thoughts/feelings in this tragic killing....but on the other hand, I have concerns about her giving out so much information as to her state of mind.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@Iz11 @BEFootball2009 Mental health issues still have a stigma attached. If she was suffering from cancer and talked about dealing with that, everybody would be sympathetic. Instead, it seems like people respond with "why bother us with it?".
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

She's an attention seeker.
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DENVILLE — The daughter of John and Joan Bramhall — who both died in an apparent murder-suicide earlier this month — says she feared for her mother's safety in the weeks and months before the deaths.

Lori Bramhall, 53, told NJ.com she called police, asking them to do a welfare check on her parents just two weeks before they were found dead on Aug. 7. Lori Bramhall's son had called his grandparents' home, and Joan Bramhall screamed when John Bramhall apparently pulled the phone away, she said. That prompted both Lori and her son to call police, she said.

"I warned the police," she said. "I warned everyone."

Lori Bramhall also said her brothers removed dozens of guns from John and Joan Bramhalls' Denville home in the days before the deaths — leaving only the one John Bramhall used to kill Joan Bramhall, and then himself. John Bramhall had always had a large collection of firearms, she said.

"He had them under beds, under couches," Lori Bramhall said. I was afraid to go there because of all of those guns."

Lori Bramhall's brothers — John Jr. and Brian, whom the family adopted — have not returned multiple calls seeking comment since their parents' deaths. Denville police have also not yet returned calls made this week seeking confirmation of the request for a welfare check, and information an any involvement they may have had in securing the firearms.

The Morris County Prosecutor's Office has said Joan Bramhall was the victim of a homicide, killed by a gunshot. It also said John Bramhall was killed by a self-inflicted gunshot.

While the prosecutor's office did not explicitly say John Bramhall shot his wife, it did say there were no indications of an intrusion into the home, and there was no continued threat to the community. Sources with knowledge of the investigation have confirmed the incident was believed to be a murder-suicide.

According to their obituaries, John Bramhall was 76, and Joan Bramhall was 78.

Lori Bramhal told NJ.com she'd always had a contentious relationship with her father, a construction company owner: "I hated my father, I hated him. I couldn't stand him." And she said the feeling was mutual.

But Lori Bramhall said her relationship with Joan Bramhall — a longtime fixture of Morris County politics who until last year had been county clerk, and who served on Gov. Chris Christie's transition team after his election — was always warm and affectionate.

"I don't know why he didn't just take himself out," Lori Bramhall said. "Why did he have to take her out too? She was a good woman who worked her whole life."
"I don't know why he didn't just take himself out. Why did he have to take her out too? She was a good woman who worked her whole life." — Lori Bramhall, about her parents' deaths

Lori Bramhall acknowledged she has a history of substance abuse and run-ins with the law, though she said she's been clean for years, attending a treatment program in Brooklyn, where she now lives.

She said her father in recent months wouldn't let her speak to her mother, intercepting calls to the house and telling Joan Bramhall "your addict daughter is on the phone." Lori Bramhall also said her own adult children were cut off as well.

But that didn't apply to all members of the family, Lori Bramhall said. She said her brothers had a better relationship with their father: "I was my mother's favorite, and the boys were my father's.'" One of her brothers had been staying with her parents recently as well, she said.

Lori Bramhall hadn't seen her parents for nearly six months, she said. The last time she went to their house, her father threatened to have her arrested, she said.

In the days before the deaths, John Bramhall sought restraining orders in the Family Division of Superior Court in Morris County against three people — a combination of children and grandchildren, court officials have told the Star-Ledger. Lori Bramhall said the orders applied to herself and to her children. One of three orders was granted, though dismissed after the deaths, court officials said.

Lori Bramhall said John Bramhall had begun telling people Joan Bramhall suffered from dementia — though Lori Bramhall said she doesn't believe that was the case. Obituaries for both Joan and John Bramhall ask that donations be made in their memories to the Alzheimer's Association, at its offices in their town.

John Bramhall had recently asserted more and more control over the couple's lives, Lori Bramhall said. Her father had taken over the household finances, which her mother always handled before that, she said.

Lori Bramhall said she believes her father never really liked or respected women. Lori Bramhall herself was named after an old girlfriend of her father's, she said — and she said that always bothered Joan Bramhall.

John Bramhall didn't like his wife's decades-long involvement in politics, according to their daughter. Other friends of the family and local politicians have told NJ.com John Bramhall would rarely accompany his wife to political functions. But none spoke of any objection John Bramhall may have had to Joan Bramhall's involvement.

"John was uncomfortable in a jacket and tie — he'd tell me that once in a while," Ron DeFilippis — who'd been finance chairman of the Morris County Republican Committee when Joan Bramhall was its vice chairwoman, as well as her campaign treasurer in later years — told NJ.com earlier this month.

Lori Bramhall said when she and her mother had spoken about her father in the past, Joan Bramhall would say John Bramhall "was nothing but a goddamn grouch."

Lori Bramhall described the past few weeks as a struggle with severe depression, and with the temptation to find an escape in drugs.

"I'm not going to get high like I always do. I'm going to stay clean," she said. "Getting high isn't going to solve my problems. I thought about killing myself, but I'm not going to do that to my mother. I'm going to fight for her."






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CJay5
CJay5 3 days ago

There but for the grace of God go I. Enough has been said about this entire situation and it has become even more damaging than it already was. It is time for all the judgmental comments to end.


I didn't want to comment and tried to stop myself many times of the last two weeks. If all the he did this and she did that and he said this and she said that is taken away, John's shooting and killing of Joan is wrong. This was not his choice to make. She was a lovely woman whom I met in the early 1960s when the family lived a few houses away.


Debbie was my childhood friend and as she became a young teenager there seemed to be terrible problems. John was on her with his so called "tough love"? Brian was a sweet, quiet, cute boy who seemed very sad for some reason. Lori was hit by a car in front of our house when she was very young. These are some memories.


John was a hunter as was my dad and they had conversations about hunting. My dad's gun were kept locked in a cabinet, not hidden under furniture. What a strange thing to do--hide guns under furniture.


It seemed something was really wrong with Debbie. What was going wrong? At the time people didn't speak out about these family issues. Debbie seemed to be sent away to live with her dad in Texas? Debbie was taken out of the high school to go to Mt St Dominic--what to live with nuns? Why did she keep disappearing?


My recollection was that Debbie and Brian were Joan's children from her first marriage. John adopted them. Doesn't this make more sense? Why would the Bramhall's just adopt Brian and then where did Debbie come from? She looked like Joan--same coloring, beautiful thick wavy hair, same height. Why would the Bramhall's adopt Brian when they married in 1960 and had Lori in 1961? This doesn't make sense. Debbie and Brain were Joan's children. Not a judgement about Joan's early first marriage, just an observation that may be incorrect. Another concocted story that would better serve Joan's political aspirations.


All I know is something was going terribly wrong with Debbie. Two years ago I learned she died and don't know why. Another daughter with drug problems? I did see John administering that so called "tough love" in a creepy, kind of way. Condescending and arrogant and more like tough hate. I guess it wasn't working then, and it didn't work with Lori, and it didn't work with Lori's children. John was the common factor. I was scared of John and my very intelligent mom suggest not being at their home when John would be home. I saw some bad things growing up in Lake Hiawatha. My other friend's dad would drink prior to coming home, sometimes in a rage. She told me to jump out of her bedroom window so that I didn't get hit with his belt too. Why did I jump and leave her there alone? I regret it to this day. Domestic abuse happens everywhere and in all income levels. It happens in Lake Hiawatha, Arden Way in Denville, and all the way up to the wealthiest homes. Shooting your spouse to kill them no matter what the situation is domestic abuse.


Now I've said what I wanted to say and hope and pray that the family can heal. It is going to take a lot of time and work. There but for the grace of God go I.
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 3 days ago

@CJay5

I'm sorry, but what is "hurtful" is your speculation.Your post is full of questions ....speculation.....and is based on a few things which happened 40-50 years ago, supplemented by speculation..


You are the first one to mention Debbie. Sadly, she was another situation of drug abuse which began very early, was not tolerated , and in her case , predictably ended very badly. No one mentioned her because it is ancient news, has no bearing on this case, and is just more hurtful tragedy


If you read everything closely from those who had first hand knowledge (family or close friends), you will note there have only been several mentions in uninformed, third-party speculative posts of "abuse", but none from the children or grandchildren.


If you re-read the article and Lori's direct quotes, you will see references to John being "grouchy" . Interestingly, the same term used by the grand-daughter to describe her grand-father. No one knows what really happened, but someone being "grouchy" because of children's/grand-children's drug abuse, theft & arrests seems reasonable to us.


And most importantly, There are two children (Brian & John Jr.) who are trying to grieve privately.

Two good boys , with wives & children of their own , who ALSO loved their Father/Grandather/Father-in-Law & Mother/grandmother/mother-in-law . And were loved by them...and never did anything to hurt or embarrass them. They are not posting. They are grieving silently.


They did not start this. The article started this. The "speculators" started this.

Every word posted here hurts them very much . John an Joan are gone.

Why attack the character of a man you knew 40 years ago, why "speculate" ?


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CJay5
CJay5 1 day ago

@30YearFamilyFriend Thank you for letting me know about Debbie. I think this information is relevant to the current situation. Debbie was my close friend when we were growing up. Referring to her drug problem or her death as ancient news is bizarre. How cruel.


Why are Lori and my comments speculation when we were there? You weren't there 40 years ago. You are only a 30 year "friend". The damage was done earlier.


Also I didn't bring up Debbie first, Michelle mentioned her aunt first. Lori didn't say her father was grouchy, she said Joan would say that. Perhaps you need to read again.


My experience is consistent with Lori and Michelle's. My point is there were problems with female members of he family. Why do you continue to bring up Lori's drug addiction in an effort to discredit her? Lori freely admitted she had a problem multiple times.


I would never intend to hurt Brian or John Jr.. Their father has done that, not me. He hurt a lot of people.


You can see clearly that shooting your spouse with the intent to kill is domestic abuse. Isolating your spouse so that they loose contact with family is abuse. This is all mentioned in the various articles. Based on the articles, John seemed to be lucid in his thoughts and actions and he was able to obtain a protective order. The story is public record, I didn't bring the articles forward.


I asked targeted questions in my earlier post. My post is not baseless, incorrect, speculation. It was based on more than 10 years of observations.


Enough of this already. I would love for you to answer the remainder of my questions privately. You seem to have a lot to say publicly that may hurt family members. Go ahead and respond so that you have the last word. It is fine.




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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 1 day ago

@CJay5

30 years plus ..It's just a screen name .


I have read your response , and commenting on your musings about Debbie being hit by a car wouldn't seem to add much to understanding John or this event.


And please tell me .....How is reminiscing about a TOTALLY DIFFERENT neighbor's drinking problem relevant ?


Instead, like you, I'll pose a couple of totally speculative questions:


What evidence do you have that John had anything but love for Debbie (in fact any of his children/grandchildren, adopted or not)....BEFORE their bad behavior and drug abuse began ?


You seem to assume "someone's" treatment of her caused her drug abuse, numerous horrible choices in men, and eventual death .

Why is John the bad guy ?

Did you ever meet Debbie's first husband ?

I first became aware of him when he and another thug tried to beat the daylights out of Debbie's brother for telling her parents about her latest use of hard-core drugs.


"Lack of love" caused these things ?

What evidence can you present that it wasn't the other way around?


Or are you merely "projecting" based on your own bad experiences with some man ??????..





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Michelle
Michelle 1 day ago

@CJay5 @30YearFamilyFriend Thank u Cjay5 for knowing how he was especially towards girls. My grandfather shouldve just taken himself and not her. Why he did it i dont know, but us grandkids and her kids had nothing to do with it. U can say what u want, but like i said u dont know went on behind those walls. And he got a restraining order 7 days before he did this, and the court for it to b set was the day before he did this. Plus there are other odds and ends i will not mention that makes me feel as if he had planned this out for a few months. And 30YearFamilyFriend and the other who want to sit there and post links to something that happened 3 years ago, and talk all sorts of crap about me. U do not know me. I do not do drugs, my babys father is the 1 in prison for 10 years, i am not. So obviously i didnt do anything and dont do drugs. I passed every drug test for 3 years which i did 3 times a week. So stop bringing me up into this and what happened. I already had to and still deal with the fact that it will always b there and never b gone. And that i have to live with that fact that my grandma, or we can say she was my mom living there since i was 8 months old, is gone and i cant talk or see her anymore, which i talked to her every week and visited with my son every month. Dont sit here and say u know JOHN cause u dont, only what u seen on the outside. And im quite sick of all this. Some people need to grow up and act like an adult and stop judging others, cause im sure you arent perfect either!
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 1 day ago

@Michelle

I repeat, I am very sorry for your loss.

You may never forgive your grandfather for taking her.

That is more than understandable.

And you can certainly cry about that.

However, I pray someday, that you understand and admit that your grandfather is not the villain in the rest of your life.

I'm sorry to say, but we both know that there are several others in your life who never treated you half as well.
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Michelle
Michelle 1 day ago

@30YearFamilyFriend @Michelle lol the only 1 who treated me well was my grandma, and that was it!
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 1 day ago

@Michelle

And, you may never believe me, but I know that and , I feel such deep sorrow for you. I have fond memories of you as sweet toddler playing on a lawn at a family function , and would love to see you that happy again.


The whole thing is a terrible tragedy.

But every day is a new day, what's past is past, you now have your own baby to bring you joy, and the wonderful memories of your grandma.

I'll say one more thing.....The disease began to take your Nana well before this happened. That is where this chapter of the tragedy began. Alzheimer's is a horrible, horrible , horrible disease.

Pray for your Nana, and do her proud with the rest of your life.


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CJay5
CJay5 1 day ago

@Michelle @CJay5 @30YearFamilyFriend Hi Michelle. Like you I now have a person attacking me and making claims about me that are without warrant.


You are the one who actually knows what happened behind closed doors. You should be proud that you have your life in order and don't let anyone make you feel bad.


I spoke up to help defend you and your mom against the accusations. I believe you. People make mistakes in life all the time. It is how you deal with the problem that makes the difference.


I never said your grandfather was the bad guy responsible for everything. I said there is a pattern against the girls in the family, that it seemed like something was very wrong in the house that impacted Debbie, and that he did something wrong that he should not have done. I witnessed him being mean to Debbie. That is my frame of reference.


I hope all the best comes your way for you and your son in the future and that you are able to heal somehow. It won't be easy, but don't give up.



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Michelle
Michelle 16 hours ago

@CJay5 i know and i thank u. but when people start to post the article of what happened its like i have to relive the whole thing all over again. and it didnt just impact my aunt debbie, it also impacted my mom. i have no family left except my brothers and i only talk to 2 of them. i am 10 times stronger then my mother, cause i have been through hell and back and i am still making it, idk how i am but i am, and never turned to drugs or alcohol. i have an almost 4 year old son to take care or and to take care of myself. i struggle everyday of my life just to make it, and yes my nana did help me out but what parent doesnt help there child? and i thank her for doing that, cause she didnt have to do any of it. and why my uncles didnt tell any of us about the funeral blows my mind, cause my nana would not have wanted that. she wouldve wanted all us grandkids to b there. but for my uncles kids to go who barely even talked to my nana and saw her like once a year. no1 is perfect and people make mistakes, u grow and learn.
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CJay5
CJay5 6 hours ago

@Michelle @CJay5 Sweetie--I just saw you post. I have to run out for a while. I will reply as soon as I get back around 8:00. I want to read again what you wrote. TTYL
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CJay5
CJay5 1 hour ago

@Michelle @CJay5 Hi Michelle, I'm glad you wrote back. For now, you probably should stop logging on if it is causing you to relive the event. Do you have a visual in your mind? Try to replace it with happier moments. My suggestion is to gather pictures of your grandmother and put them in beautiful frames and make a little area where you can look at those pictures. It would be good to have pictures of happy memories. I like the one of you, Joan, and your son for a start. It shows so much love.


Right now you should be very kind to yourself. You must take good care of yourself.You are the only person who can make sure that you are well taken care of. Do things you like to do. Go for a walk, go hiking cook a nice meal, look at a beautiful sunset, etc. Find something you really like to do that makes you release stress and relax.


When I got divorced, I took care of my son financially by myself. I didn't ask for any alimony. So I made my son my focus. It gave me great strength and I had to work to put a roof over his head, pay the bills, buy the food, cook, clean, do laundry, etc. I was so determined to make all of this happen. Everything did not always go perfectly and I made so many mistakes. Knowing that I had him to take care of though allowed me to accomplish a lot. You are in the same situation and I sense that you have a deep devotion to your son.


For you I am hoping that eventually you can reconnect with other family members. I don't know if this is possible, due to the situation. They may surprise you later on. It is hard to say. You will need to put the situation about the funeral aside. I guess they were concerned that something might go wrong. Go to the cemetery and put flowers and have your own service. If you are religious, you might want to have a priest or minister do a service.


I would like to meet with you to talk directly. I would provide e-mail or phone contact information, but I'm not sure how to do it. Also, try some of the things I mentioned above. These are some of the things I did after my parents passed away.


I found out my parents were both ill with cancer at the same time. My dad lived three weeks. He was my rock and a wonderful man. My mom lived 10 months. She almost died 3 months after my dad, due to a clot in her lung. She pulled through. So we had hospice care for her. She was a PhD nurse and did want to extend her life by having surgery, chemo, or radiation. I had to abide by her wishes and it was a difficult time for all of us in the family. I had not time to grieve my parents as I was the executrix for two estates.


Right after my mother died, one of my best friends was murdered in her home. I didn't find her the next day, her 90 year old parents did. I do have a visual in my mind that is my own creation due to information if found our during the investigation by the detectives. It took 17 months to find the murderer and I thought I would loose my mind due to the stress and not knowing who this terrible person was. I would also imagine that the person knew who I was and I would be next. I don't want to go into any more details. From day to day I didn't know how I was going to survive or what to do. I made it because I am very strong like you. It took me three years to get to a better place.


Let me know if you want to talk. Please take care of yourself and your son the best you can. If you are unable to afford counseling, you might meet with a priest or minister or join a group for grief support. I may best best to work toward forgiving your grandfather, not forget, but forgive so that you can move on. this may take a long time.
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 3 days ago

@CJay5 And PS: Those of us who knew them well, have perfectly reasonable answers to every one of your questions, but see no need to answer them in a public forum. That is why I know your post is full of baseless , incorrect , speculation.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 1 day ago

@30YearFamilyFriend @CJay5 You sound like my MIL. Her young adult granddaughter was raped by her former daughter-in-law's new husband. When he was arrested at work after they confirmed the DNA evidence, all my MIL could say was "how embarrassing for him that he was arrested at work".


DNA evidence proving the rape wasn't the issue, the poor man being arrested at work and "how would it look to them being arrested" was the issue.


The "man" was of sound mind and could process, and made a decision to kill his wife then himself. If you want that to keep happening, hide it. Ignore the signs. Tell the women to shut up. Tell the kids to shut up.


Make it a point of us vs. them, those who hide secrets vs. those who want to know why so that the next tragedy doesn't happen.

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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 1 day ago

@non sequitur

Right , wrong or indifferent, there was only love at the root of this .
You can judge the act, but not knowing them, you can not judge the man.
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CJay5
CJay5 1 day ago

@non sequitur @30YearFamilyFriend @CJay5 Thank you so much non sequitur. You are right on target.
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labstroller
labstroller 4 days ago

yawn.....So much white trash...Nobody cares...honestly, nobody cares. Go on Jerry Springer and leave us alone.
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sm1112
sm1112 4 days ago

each & everyone of you who posted or supported posted links are in my prayers may you one day be granted half the traits you wish/act like you have.
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 4 days ago

@sm1112

To be clear, Lori gave an interview telling her side of a story that goes back 40 years .

In posts , Michelle told a one-sided story of John and berated her Uncles.

Stephen (you?) also weighed in with his one-sided story.

Others, who never met John or Joan , posted wild, baseless-speculation in regards to 1) domestic abuse , 2) "gun nuts" , 3) a chauvinist who was jealous of his wife's success , etc

And Lori's family, all deny the fact that Joan was suffering from a rapidly worsening Alzheimer's even though they hadn't spent much (any?) time with her over the last six months.

They are WRONG, and several doctor's made that assessment. I know because I was at a family wedding not long ago, and when I asked John how Joan was doing, he explained, but not before tear-ing up.

But those family members posting on this site who deny her condition never asked how she was doing , because to them, Joan was merely an ATM.

On the other hand, other family members sadly spent hours searching for her in a Mall when she got "lost".


Those of us who know the other side of the story feel compelled to rebut the nonsense in Lori's version of the story. We're not saying she "lied". She simply doesn't know, or has a one-sided view.


Therefore , no one is "judging" Lori, Michele or Stephen. Friends and neighbors feel that the long-term drug abuse, arrests of several members of the family ....and the stress those things caused the ENTIRE family for over forty years .......have a bearing on the veracity of Lori & her children's warped and distorted view of John. .Their view is biased and distorted , partly because they "hated" John.


In our view, they hated John because he never tolerated , enabled, or excused their past behavior. And we want to point out why ONLY those certain members of a grieving family would take to NJ,Com to attack John.


So, we are not "attacking" Lori or her children, simply calling into question their point of view because of the history that (you?) would like to forget. If they (you?) have reformed themselves ....we are all VERY happy and proud of you. You future will be much brighter than your past .


But this story is about the history of John & Joan, and it appears that none of you will yet admit that your past actions have terribly affected them, and dozens of people. The first step towards redemption is to recognize and accept your past. It seems from your posts, you have not yet done so.


Those of us who knew John and Joan know they loved each other. And although hundreds of people knew them, not ONE person had ever seen them disagree (let alone argue) EXCEPT about how best to deal with Lori & her children .

There was no domestic abuse...EVER.

John was very proud of his wife's career & success. John was not a "gun nut". He was an avid hunter , outdoorsman, and fisherman. The hunting guns he owned were very valuable, and they were hidden because he feared his grandchildren would steal them, and hock them for drugs. They had stolen from him before .

Some in Lori's family may not have agreed with his "rules" , but it was his house that they were invited guests there.

Lori's brothers are not "POS" as Michele called them in posts. They are some of the finest, most upstanding , hardest working , honorable men we know. And it is relevant to tell the world that although Michele disagrees, her uncles never were arrested for having a meth lab in their home.

And Stephen's view of his grandfather just MAY be biased by the fact his grandfather had not forgiven him for his criminal behavior (as demonstrated by the links, and the ones that never hit the newspaper, but which other friends/family know about) . So the posts are there to help tell the "why" of Stephen historical view, not to predict his future or condemn him. .


So, to the disgruntled segment of the family I say:

1) I am terribly sorry for your loss. Your parents/grandparents were wonderful people. Not perfect, but pretty darn close. None of us will ever really know "why" this happened, but the speculation so far is unproductive, uniformed and , WAY off-base.

2) Grieve for your grandparents in private. What is the benefit of trashing your grandfather here ? He's gone. Grant him the forgiveness that you demanded from him.

3) Accept the cost of your past behavior. You may never be able to mend fences. Move on with your lives.

4) And if you REALLY are contrite , want to put the past-in-the-past , and want to honor the memory of your mother/grandmother leave the rest of the family alone to grieve in peace . That is what Joan would have wanted. That is all the others ever wanted, that is all they ever asked from you. A little peace for once. PLEASE !!!!!
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sm1112
sm1112 2 days ago

forgot you lived in that house & were part of the family.
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 2 days ago

@sm1112 I know you are hurt, grieving, and probably scared , so I feel very sorry for you. Your Nana is gone, and you don't know who will bail you out next time. I understand.


I also know that you've had a tough life, but I doubt (in an honest moment) even you could say that the worst of it is John's fault .

I have stopped myself from replying to you several times today because I am not trying to hurt you, but rest assured I won't let you cause any more collateral damage either. There is already enough pain to go around.


Grieve privately, and move on with your life.

Again, I am very sorry for your loss. They were very good people and we will all miss them very much.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 1 day ago

@30YearFamilyFriend @sm1112

You are blaming Lori for her father killing her mother.

I hope whatever religion/moral compass you ascribe to makes you content with that.
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 1 day ago

@non sequitur

Can you read ? Where did I "blame" anyone for Joan's death ? Please quote me directly .


I have simply been calling into question false allegations/speculation by demonstrating why the individuals either didn't know the family, or in the case of family members who are posting, by explaining why they might have a biased point of view.


Those people have not disputed a single fact about their past.

They've asked not to be judged (while they judge their grandfather) . I judge neither them OR their grandfather.

(Perhaps , unlike you, I don't think I'm the all-knowing God who can see into someone's mind & soul ).

They've asked for compassion. I certainly have lots of it.

They've said they've changed . I would be willing to give them another chance.


But I have an allergy to lies.


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sm1112
sm1112 4 days ago

it must be quite easy to sit around & type things you'll never have to say in person. many of you act as if there's no recovering & bettering yourself after a drug charge, you know what you can't recover from? being murdered.
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sm1112
sm1112 4 days ago

I can't help but to notice how many of you are contradicting yourselves talking about how great of a man John was & almost praising him for murdering his wife & then killing himself but throwing shade towards those who made mistakes that harmed nobody.. but then again those looking in from the outside know more than the family .. silly me.
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Lds1019
Lds1019 4 days ago

Harmed nobody?
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sm1112
sm1112 4 days ago

glad you can read. please try to compare a murder suicide to a drug charge right now I would love a laugh.
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Exit26
Exit26 4 days ago

No one is comparing a murder suicide to a drug charge. You shouldn't criticize someone else's reading comprehension abilities when you apparently have a few of your own. There was more than "a drug charge" in that family. And also don't be a fool to think that those who made mistakes harmed nobody.
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230YearFamilyFriendmarla74LikeReply
sm1112
sm1112 4 days ago

if nobody is comparing a murder suicide to drug charges than why are so many links to articles posted?
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Exit26
Exit26 4 days ago

You are the one making the comparison between murder suicide & 'a drug charge'. The links that others provided were to show the character of the people involved.
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sm1112
sm1112 2 days ago

ohh so the only character somebody can have has to be found in their faults? logical
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marla74
marla74 4 days ago

@sm1112 click on the links I posted Hun, the fire department and hazmat team had to come out to diffuse the meth lab Joan and Johns grand daughter Michelle Casella was running in her home, she could have blown up her 15 month old child along with herself and whoever was in her home at the time, and possibly kill or injure her neighbors in the explosion, also lets not forget the fact that she was selling meth which is a horrible addictive drug that kills and destroys lives. How do we know that her meth sales didn't kill anyone or lead to injuries? They also found other drug paraphernalia in her home along with scales and accessories to distribute and sell. She even admitted to purchasing Sudafed which is a meth ingredient. I can also tell by her mug shot photo that she appears to be a meth user, you can see it in her eyes and sunken face. Joan was a wonderful lady and when I met John he was a true gentleman and spoke very highly of Joan's accomplishments! May John and Joan rest in piece!
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sm1112
sm1112 4 days ago

I have no reading comprehension issues, I didn't thoroughly read anything any of you have posted because I'm not perfect like all of you. nobody typing & posting links to articles would be as bold in person. many of you need to take a step off your high horse & step into the light of understanding & respect an issue you do not fully grasp then maybe your paragraphs can be looked at as complete thoughts. for those of you with children when you see them let them know their parents never learned to treat others the way they wanted to be treated & as long as nothing is drug related mommy(/or daddy) will always try to justify the situation! be proud of yourselves for acting like you have the right to throw shade towards people going through such a tragic time & sticking your noses deep into an issue than does absolutely nothing for you besides make you feel better about yourselves from behind the screen.
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sm1112
sm1112 4 days ago

peace*. oops forgot I have reading comprehension issues.. there I go again, silly me thinking somebody would pay half as much attention to grammar than they do to belittling others.
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marla74
marla74 4 days ago

This is Lori's daughter Michelle Casella

http://wnep.com/2012/02/22/two-arres...h-lab-found-4/
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marla74
marla74 4 days ago

http://wnep.com/tag/michelle-casella/
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marla74
marla74 4 days ago

http://www.wfmz.com/news/Meth-lab-ta...police/8812002
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marla74
marla74 4 days ago

http://wnep.com/2012/02/22/neighbors...-reputation-2/
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Exit26
Exit26 5 days ago

Too bad some comments were removed. Too bad a little more research wasn't done before printing this disgustingly one-sided article.
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

Right on fellow neighbor. Those of us who live/lived there and know the family personally( witnessing things first hand) Know the truth. It's time ppl heard the the other side.
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Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com
Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com 5 days ago

@Lds1019 Hi Exit26 and LDS1019 -- We've tried repeatedly to reach out to several other family members, and they haven't returned our calls (which of course they're not obligated to do -- they're dealing with a very difficult situation right now, too). If there's more to say that would shed more light on situation, we'd of course want to reflect that. If you were close to the family, or knew someone else who was and who would be willing to speak on the record, please feel free to contact me at [email protected].
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

Thank- you for the offer, but I have shared enough information for your educated readers to put the pieces of information together from those of us who knew Joan and John. They don't even have to take our word for it, they can google how Lori and her family have had run in after run in with the law. I'm not saying it's the grandchildren s fault, they were already at a disadvantage being born to a drug addicted mother. Again, I am not passing judgement, but it is a fact that these type of children struggle with learning disabilities and are prone to drugs just by the nature of the situation. For whatever reason, Lori chose the wrong path in life multiple times and her parents and siblings were there time and time to pick up the pieces. It boggles my mind to think stranger think John was a bad person, when Lori admidettly stated her parents raised all six of her children. How many parents would do that? Once, twice, but six times? How were joan and John repaid? By grandchildren who cost them a great deal of money bailing their tails out of jail multiple times. John and Joan were finally on the same page when Stephen stole a substantial amount of money; he was the last one to be kicked out. This family has endured more than anyone could imagine; even Mother Teresa would have thrown up her hands. Sadly, Joan was not in good health in the final weeks and while it is not up to us to pass judgement as to what happened, I want ppl to know that John was loud, and after giving someone the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to change their life, he did wash his hands of Lori and her children. But he was at the same time a man of good character, and he was a generous and giving man. Those close to the family thought Joan should have practice tough love too, but as a mother she found it hard to turn her back. It's not a secret that she looked for the good in everyone; espevially her children and grandchildren. John and Joan may the two of you find eternal peace together in heaven. I can't think of two ppl who deserve it more than the both of you!
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Michelle
Michelle 4 days ago

@Lds1019 U knew JOHN from outside his house not went on inside it. I dont know who u are and i honestly dont care. But sitting here and putting stuff that has NOTHING to do with the fact that he went and did what he did to her was the act of a SICK AND DERANGED MAN and someone who had to have had something wrong with them. AND IF U KNEW THEM SO WELL U WOULD KNOW SHE RAISED 4 GRANDKIDS NOT 6, So now u are pulling all types of information outta ur a--..... And u say kids born to drug addict parents are prone to doing drugs, HONEY I DONT DO DRUGS, U can sit there and read what u want in the paper about me, but am i in jail? No... Do i still have my kid? YES. They dont UPDATE the story to what really happened with everything do they??? Yes i went through HELL from today to back when i was younger growing up with my grandparents. My grandma was the best thing on earth and was ALWAYS there. Yes ive had money troubles, i am a single mother with NO help elsewhere. I have done what i need to do to better myself for me and my son! I was very very close with my nana, my grandfather was just a grouch every second of every day. It is NOT our fault that they had to raise us, but im glad that my nana raised us cause i can tell u, i wouldnt b where i am now. All you people on here are talking all sorts of crap and its very upsetting that i have to sit here and read all this. This happened 2 weeks ago and trying to get through day by day and not have to worry about something NEW that people are saying in comments or even to the news. Dont sit here and judge me or my siblings, u DO NOT KNOW US AND WHAT WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH. Read what u want, and believe what u want. I myself and whoever knows all of us, know the real story and what happened in the days BEFORE this all happened, which i am not my mother and am not gonna sit here and say because i have more respect for my nana. My grandfather on the other hand is another issue. i can go on and on, but im not because im sick of this little kid he said she said junk on here... U are all adults, ACT IT AND GROW UP!
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marla74
marla74 4 days ago

@Michelle @Lds1019 http://wnep.com/2012/02/22/two-arres...h-lab-found-4/ sorry hun but this pretty much says it all, I don't believe a word you say about your Grandparents. I found John to be a lovely person and when I met him he seemed so proud of your Grandma!
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non sequitur
non sequitur 1 day ago

@marla74 @Michelle @Lds1019 John List was a lovely person.
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Michelle
Michelle 1 day ago

@marla74 @Michelle @Lds1019 Good for u Marla! U are judging based on a article of what happened. If i did it, why am i not in prison and have my child still??? Tell me that? And thats the fakeness of a man hiding!
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sm1112
sm1112 4 days ago

right on fellow neighbor!! murder/suicide is ok! God forbid somebody made a mistake pertaining to drugs. ignorance must be bliss.
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 5 days ago

It is sad that NJ.com only has one side of this story, but Joan and John's real, loving, family are not posting . They are too busy grieving.

Out of respect for the Bramhall family, those of us who know the real background to this story , have not disclosed what we know , but thinking people can put two & two together .

The request for donations to the Alzheimer's foundation is important.

The troubled, and estranged daughter , is important .

The fact that the Bramhalls raised several grandchildren due to their daughter's addiction, tells you what type of people they both were , and is important .


We all know that people with drug problems often see things through the prism of their cravings and addiction.

We also know that a mother's love can sometimes transcend repeated transgressions, and can too often end up enabling those with addictions.


A father can only be stolen-from so many times by his children and grandchildren before he disowns them

John was a great and big-hearted man, and very warm in his own way, but he was also a tough-love guy.

The daughter "hated" him. That's important to remember.


John loved and was proud of his wife , and her accomplishments until the end.....I know because he often told his friends glowing stories of her political success


Here's a hint .........The family of whiners on this site are only interested in three things ....

1) The Money, 2) the money, 3) the money
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

Amen! It's time those who knew John and John set the record straight.
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marla74
marla74 5 days ago

I had met Joan a few times at various political and county events over the years and had the chance to meet John once and they were wonderful people! I cant stand to see her daughter and granddaughter on here slandering their family. I did a quick google search of the grand daughter on here commenting about how horrible her grandfather was and found out she is a meth addict that was arrested for operating a meth lab in her home while her young baby was in the house! im pretty sure it is the same girl because the mugshot looks just like her photo on this forum! I wouldn't believe anything these people say about two lovely people! no wonder they were not invited to the funeral!

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbc...NEWS/202210320
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Exit26
Exit26 5 days ago

You should Google the son too & see what you find. Apparently the apples didn't fall far from the tree.
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 5 days ago

@marla74 Thank you, Marla for pointing out some very important facts .
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

You are 100% correct
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Michelle
Michelle 5 days ago

Please delete this. This story isn't about me or my brothers... for 1 stop believing everything u read in the papers. I have never n will NEVER do drugs because of my mother. If u actually knew who I am then u would know i am against drugs but only a pos with no life would go n stoop so low to actually go n Google names n then post a link for all to see. My nana was my mother I have lived with her since I was 8 months old my grandfather I can careless about. U may know him but u DO NOT know what went on beyond those walls. All u saw was the fakeness of a man who pretended to act nice to your face. I left that house when I was 17 n living on my own paying my own way n helping 2 of my siblings out with places to stay. I talked to my nana EVERY week n visited her with my 4 year old son every month or so.. so before u ppl go n say this n that please get your facts straight first cause this is getting out of control.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 1 day ago

@Michelle Very soon this will all lead to a lawsuit against the Star Ledger.
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jimlaregina
jimlaregina 6 days ago

"Lori Bramhall's brothers — John Jr. and Brian, whom the family adopted — have not returned multiple calls seeking comment since their parents' deaths."

Why bother to point out that Brian was adopted? Perhaps he is also left-handed, unusually tall, or a heck of a Canasta player, but this article makes no mention of any such thing about him. Yet the author feels it necessary to say the Bramalls adopted Brian. How come?
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

Funny Lori mention that Brian was adopted. I knew them for more than 10 years before that was disclosed. Brian was as much a part of the family as the biological children. One fact that wasn't mentioned, was that John was prouder of Brian than he was of his drug addicted daughter. Hum, do I detect some jealousy, Lori ?
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Michelle
Michelle 4 days ago

@Lds1019 U NEED A BETTER HOBBY!
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Michelle
Michelle 6 days ago

@ridoffools wow thats a messed up thing to say
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Exit26
Exit26 6 days ago

As a long time former resident of Arden Rd, I find this article to be disgusting. No one's family is perfect but Lori Bramhall & her children should stop airing their side of their family's dirty laundry.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 1 day ago

@Exit26 The question is, why did this guy kill his wife?

Does it matter whether:

- he was continually abusing his wife and others, or

- he freaked out because his wife was losing her memory and ability to function?


Well, it does if you don't want it to happen again.


And it does if you think that hiding guns around your house is NOT NORMAL.
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Michelle
Michelle 1 day ago

@non sequitur @Exit26 I wouldnt call it hiding guns when they were under the bed and in the attic and closets.
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Exit26
Exit26 1 day ago

I said the article is disgusting. It's poorly written and goaded Lori Bramhall on. The author states that calls made to her brothers & Denville Police Dept were not returned. Why do you think that is? The author obviously knew he wouldn't get any info for a story from them.
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oldtimer
oldtimer 6 days ago

Sick/deviant man killed a good woman

end of story
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non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@oldtimer Just like the Lanza murder spree, let's just say "end of story" and not try to prevent it in the future. Are you a large flightless bird from Africa?
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Pearl08082004
Pearl08082004 6 days ago

What a tragedy. I hope that Lori finds the strength to push through and that she focuses on being there for HER children. It's sad to me when families are torn apart by past issues that they just cannot get over. My family has had issues too, but to me, life is too short. Live your life for the people who are THERE, and don't worry about those who just bring negativity. My sincere condolences for their loss.
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2sickofit
2sickofit 6 days ago

I remain puzzled that apparently the experts are unable to determine conclusively that she was murdered by her husband.
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Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com
Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com 6 days ago

Hi @2sickofit . I don't know that it's a matter of them not determining it, just them not saying it. The prosecutor's office put out a statement identifying John Bramhall's death as a suicide by gunshot, and Joan's a homicide by gunshot, but didn't explicitly say he shot her. We asked for a confirmation/clarification, but they didn't issue any further statement after that.
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2sickofit
2sickofit 6 days ago

@Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com @2sickofit It seems unusual, doesn't it? It's been a while now. What could be the motivation behind their lack of response/clarification?
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BritishBanker
BritishBanker 6 days ago

This is a perfect example, When you live in a nice low crime area and someone in the house owns a gun, that gun is more likely to be used against someone in that home rather than an imaginary intruder.
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frankbooth23
frankbooth23 6 days ago

@BritishBanker that is simply a fact. period.
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DoogoDecneliS
DoogoDecneliS 4 days ago

@frankbooth23 That he made up, being anti-gun. Total BS.
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LakepPuke
LakepPuke 6 days ago

Reality show exploitation.
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Luc Saldist
Luc Saldist 6 days ago

Why remove dozens of guns but leave one gun? One gun is all it takes. Someone said to move on from this tragedy and I believe the family would like some privacy as they have to live with what happened for years to come. Hopefully someone who is suffering from similar circumstances can learn that the results can be different.
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monilove24
monilove24 6 days ago

@Luc Saldist It's feasible that they didn't know about it.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@monilove24 @Luc Saldist Or he just bought it. Due diligence would be for the cops to see when he bought the gun - though obviously the restraining orders were temporary so likely if it was a "new" gun it was bought after the other guns were removed from his house.
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

The daughter is the one giving interviews. Not the brothers. Why is that?
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monilove24
monilove24 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1 What difference does it make?
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

She's keeping it in the public eye not them. My comment was in response to a post above who asked that the family be left alone to move forward. To which I agree.
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monilove24
monilove24 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1 Her mother was an accomplished woman yet somehow she didn't escape that horrible fate. Her daughter's decision to discuss her mother's life may help other women in less ideal circumstances make a decision that could possibly save their lives. There's nothing wrong with that.
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

Only that it doesn't come from the source. This is a daughter who suffered addiction, hated her father.

There is no evidence other then the daughters side.

I consider what she says but can't say it is whole truth, partial truth or a lie.

Maybe the husband couldn't endure seeing his accomplished wife deteriorate. Maybe they discussed this option privately. Who knows?
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monilove24
monilove24 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1 "Maybe the husband couldn't endure seeing his accomplished wife deteriorate. Maybe they discussed this option privately..."


Was that the husband's decision to make?




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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

Maybe they discussed this privately is what I said. They does not make one.

I am just putting out a thought. Not a fact.
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monilove24
monilove24 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1 Didn't say you did. But what I've read these types of sentiments before.


Why is it so hard to believe that domestic violence crosses all socio-economic barriers. Affluent people are never willing to discuss it...Ms. Bramhall's daughter has seemingly made some very uncomfortable by bringing the issue to the forefront.


It is very disheartening to read the comments discussing her problems with addiction rather than the loss of her mother.
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

The reason she is being discussed is the story is about what she thinks. Of course domestic violence crosses all boundaries. Who said that is hard to believe.
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monilove24
monilove24 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1 Aren't all news article interviews about what the person being interviewed thinks?


And when someone discusses domestic violence with you or you think of people in domestic violence situations...what images do you see in your mind? I'd venture to say you see people living in the inner city or trailer parks wearing sleeveless t-shirts and drinking cheap beer rather than someone living in an affluent neighborhood and wearing designer clothes.
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

I'd venture to say you know nothing of me at all. Stop projecting what you think as being what I think
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monilove24
monilove24 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1 I must have touched a nerve.
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

No. You reply to everything I post as if I said something other then I did. I don't appreciate people putting words or thoughts on me that I do not say or think.

You're sole focus is domestic violence. I have not heard any thing proven to suggest it. I wonder about this being a mercy killing. Prominent go getter woman, well known, respected reduced to what by dementia. Terrible scenario. Quite honestly I'd consider death before losing it completely.

Who knows?

I am sure there is more to it all but really this is more private and should be handled in the family. Not the news cycle.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@monilove24 @survivedthereignofterror1 No, and it smacks of John List's decision to "help his family out".


And perhaps there are financial reasons in this case too.
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Michelle
Michelle 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1 Because my uncles are POS..... They want to act like they are perfect when in reality they are not. They didnt even tell us when the funeral was and supposedly had a private 1 to find out that there were politicians there, and my cousins, which were my uncles kids. How is they were allowed to go and us grandchildren, WHO GREW UP WITH THEM since we were VERY YOUNG, she was basically our mother. And my grandfather can rot, i can careless. He was a very very mean man, which lead my mother to do what she has done and also my aunt, who passed away maybe 3-4 years ago.
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

I am very sorry for your loss
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

Haven't you, your mother and siblings caused your family enough heartache. Tell the truth Michelle as to the real reason you guys weren't invited. Perhaps start with the very large sum of money Stephen stole from your grandparents.
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30YearFamilyFriend
30YearFamilyFriend 5 days ago

@Luc Saldist Or maybe their estranged , drug addicted, daughter simply got it wrong since she hadn't been in the house for years and would have absolutely no way of really knowing.

Like much of what she posted , it is one sided, and most likely incorrect.


While I have sympathy for those with addictions (the daughter and grandchildren have all had run-ins with the law and drugs) , my pity does not make what they say "true" , nor is everything they do "good", nor in he best interests of those who love them and have done everything humanly possible to help them get their lives on track .


The same grand-daughter who proclaims her love of her grandmother probably would say she loved her 15 month old baby ...the one that she had in her house wile operating a meth lab.


Sad, pitiable, worthy of our attempts to help....Yes.

A truthful and reliable source or the story.....Not likely.
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Stephen Bramhall
Stephen Bramhall 6 days ago

no one spoke about how my uncles didn't invite my mom or my brothers and sister to my grandmothers funeral
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

I am sorry for your loss. Sounds like bad blood between the family. I am sorry you are caught up in the sibling/parent dynamic here.

Advice from me is to make your own mind up. Don't necessarily listen to the side of a former addict exclusively. They truly do have their own version which they believe to be true and it may not be.

Been there...done that
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byebyejc
byebyejc 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1 Just because his mom FORMERLY abuse drugs doesn't mean that she cannot state how she was treated. Maybe the way that her dad treated her drove her to drugs. None of us know the family or the family's past history. You are correct in stating that he should make up his own mind when it comes to the relationship with the rest of the family but remember that is his mom that you are speaking about and he knows if his mom is telling the truth or not and whether his grandmother backed up those stories and if he witnessed the relationship between his mother and grandfather.
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

Ever deal with a past or present addict. Versions of life differ.
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byebyejc
byebyejc 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1

yes I have, family members and non family and some do remember events differently and some remember exactly. You cannot put everybody in the same boat.
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

I never put everyone in one group. Of course people are different.
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Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com
Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com 6 days ago

Hi, @Stephen Bramhall. I spoke to your mother about a number of things beyond what made it into the article. My supervisor and I talked through what we felt was appropriate to include here, and we decided to restrict the article to information that might help give some context to your grandparents' deaths, but not get into ongoing family issues or conflicts among those left behind.

My condolences to you, your mother and everyone else touched by this.
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Ireallyhatelawyers
Ireallyhatelawyers 6 days ago

@Stephen Bramhall So hold your own memorial service. It won't be the first time that's been done. Celebrate her life with your immediate family.


Airing your family's dirty laundry for the whole world to see is probably not something your grandmother would have wanted.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@Ireallyhatelawyers @Stephen Bramhall


My mother didn't want our dirty laundry aired. She told me that if I told on my brother, that he caused my broken shoulder, that *I* would be taken away by the police. Silence is golden, right?


It is HER decision to speak up, just as, per her son, it was her brothers' decision to not invite her to the funeral. Let her decide on her own. And likely she might help a few people, like my friend who has parents dealing with similar issues.
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Ireallyhatelawyers
Ireallyhatelawyers 6 days ago

@non sequitur @Ireallyhatelawyers @Stephen Bramhall No silence is not golden. But don't whine about not being invited to your grandparents' funeral to the newspapers. Hold your own service. The brothers probably felt that the sister and her family were just going to create havoc and wanted the funerals over without any more publicity.
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Michelle
Michelle 6 days ago

@Ireallyhatelawyers @non sequitur @Stephen Bramhall Excuse me???? We had EVERY right to go and to say goodbye. And its not the same, obviously!
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non sequitur
non sequitur 1 day ago

@Michelle @Ireallyhatelawyers @non sequitur @Stephen Bramhall Nah, not having the bodies and burying them is okay.


Who decides who has the right to "ownership" of loved ones?

I watched a friend of mine, a very dear friend I knew all my life, have her plug pulled by her nephew. He had medical POA, which trumped her living will which said that ALL MEANS NECESSARY should be used to keep her alive.


She was on a respirator due to a pulmonary embolism, but otherwise was fine. People are sick.
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

Your uncles didn't invite you because you cause your grandparents nothing but hardship and pain. Tell the readers how you stole $15k from their home, while they were out earning an honest living. Or how you would take the car they bought you and drive it into the corner if their brick home. If you want to post, try something new.... Tell the truth.
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Michelle
Michelle 5 days ago

Where u pulling this out of? Lol all I can do is laugh at these ridiculous comments... Louis please delete these ppl r going WAY out of the real reason what happened n blowing it out of proportion.... just cause u said u lived down the St doesn't mean u know the truth
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Michelle
Michelle 4 days ago

@Lds1019 LMFAO... U HAVE NO DAMN LIFE DO U??? FOR 1 I DIDNT LIVE THERE WHEN I HAD MY LICENSE I LEFT AS SOON AS I TURNED 17... LIVING ON MY OWN SINCE. AND I DIDNT STEAL 15K IM NOT THAT FREAKING STUPID! HOW OLD ARE U, 2???? ITS TIME TO GROW UP AND FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO DO
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careforyou
careforyou 4 days ago

@Michelle @Lds1019 The comments you post really should be held as a private conversation . The sad story here is of the death of 2 people , 1 a victim . The circumstances of your life are not really interesting to anyone but you . It's very selfish to post the hate and hurt you are feeling right now in a public forum . I'm sure the resentment runs very deep and especially a time enduring the loss of someone you loved . Please take a deep breath before posting , once in print it can be retrieved forever. This includes during a time when your children may read all of this , consequently there may be a time in your life when all of this may heal and you will resent the very things you publish .
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non sequitur
non sequitur 1 day ago

@careforyou @Michelle @Lds1019 It's not looking like the Bramhalls raised their kids right, not one of them
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monilove24
monilove24 6 days ago

I wish Lori the best in her recovery in dealing with the loss of her mother and her sobriety.
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1non sequiturLikeReply
oldtimer
oldtimer 6 days ago

@monilove24 my advice to her would be to crack open a beer at home and let her emotions out.

havng total strangers shame you at these crazy meetings will not help her in the longrun.
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morris75
morris75 6 days ago

"But none spoke of any objection Joan Bramhall may have had to Joan Bramhall's involvement." ???
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Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com
Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com 6 days ago

@morris75 That was a typo -- thanks for the catch. It's been fixed.
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morris75
morris75 6 days ago

@Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com @morris75 No problem. If it wasn't for spell check, you would think I was a 5 year old playing on his fathers computer!!!
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byebyejc
byebyejc 6 days ago

@morris75 @Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com morris 75, spell check would not have caught there, think before you try to be a smarty pants!!!
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byebyejc
byebyejc 6 days ago

@morris75 @Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com


my error..."caught that" not there! Just in case you want to spell check me, I caught my own error.
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morris75
morris75 6 days ago

@byebyejc @morris75 @Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com HAHAHA, I can just imagine your horror when you realized you made a mistake and couldn't fix it before the allowed 3 min. Then you felt the need to write under it.

I wasn't saying spell check would of caught "there". I was just saying "There" no one is perfect and that I have horrible spelling. I was making fun of myself. How is "there". Is "there" smarty pants enough for you.

I knew Louis made an honest mistake and was just pointing it out.
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revrevised
revrevised 6 days ago

Time to let this go.
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jayel579
jayel579 6 days ago

Wait this is the drug addict daughter, right?
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mabber2000
mabber2000 6 days ago

@jayel579 clean for many years. Please read the story. Murder/suicide. Well respected woman. Why must people always bring something negative into a story. If you can't say anything nice don't say it at all. Give credit for being clean. She is not saying only a few months. She is saying years.
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This comment has been deleted
monilove24
monilove24 6 days ago

@jayel579 @mabber2000 Must people politicize everything?
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2bayshore ladybyebyejcLikeReply
Mary Beth Jahn
Mary Beth Jahn 6 days ago

Recovery is an ongoing journey throughout the rest of your life. An addict has to work at staying clean and sober every day, as do alcoholics.
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2bayshore ladysurvivedthereignofterror1LikeReply
non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@jayel579 @mabber2000 And people wonder why it is important not to require job applicants to list whether they had been arrested or not and for what...
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oldtimer
oldtimer 6 days ago

@jayel579 @mabber2000 junkies cause so much damage to everyone around them.
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mcbush
mcbush 6 days ago

This is so sad. Obviously this man had a history of domestic violence yet he was still allowed to possess firearms. How did he manage to get a restraining order against his family? People ignore the signs before it's too late. I hope people read this and take heed to those around them. And I hope the family can heal after this.
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2calicofrankbooth23LikeReply
non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@mcbush Articles like this are needed to help people understand the signs, and find out when they need help.


IIRC, the police visited one particular mass shooter's home within a few days of him flipping out and killing a bunch of people. They thought he was "fine". Educating not only the public but the police and the judges about such cases is important.


My spouse and I are watching "Soap" and the way they treat mental illness, granted in a comedy vein, is very true to life. TV is over-dramatized now focusing on the results not how people get there.
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

How is it obvious he had a history of domestic violence?

I have not read anything of that other then the word of a daughter who hated her father by her own admission.

We don't know their lives. It would seem logical that he took over the finances if his wife had dementia. I would imagine there is a diagnosis of that by a doctor

Very sad airing dirty laundry on those who can not express their side of things.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@survivedthereignofterror1 There were interviews with people she knew who said that she had become slightly more forgetful, like lost her train of thought in conversation, BUT that she was able to recover quickly (like any other senior without dementia) and continue the conversation easily.


Most people who get dementia as they become elderly can't turn it on and off, it is due to brain damage.


So - had she been isolated? Had people not seen her for a while?


However, if she was being controlled by her husband, she may have been more than a little distracted. It is possible that he or both of them had dementia.
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frankbooth23
frankbooth23 7 days ago

" John Bramhall had always had a large collection of firearms, she said."


The mentality of any gun "enthusiast" will eventually become the deranged mind of John Bramhall.


period.
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Milliwatt Rob
Milliwatt Rob 7 days ago

@frankbooth23 There are a lot of gun owners and collectors who are perfectly sane. The problem is, if and when they go over the edge, they have the means to do much damage.
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4thelols
4thelols 7 days ago

@frankbooth23 And if he had no guns, then sleeping pills do the job. Or a knife. Or car exhaust.

You're looking at it from the wrong angle.
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PookieButt
PookieButt 7 days ago

@frankbooth23 Keeping guns under the couch and bed were telltale signs she was married to a lunatic. And at the end of the day. John's Second Amendment Rights did not inure to Joan's benefit.
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2non sequiturServusLikeReply
survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

Generalize much?
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Ireallyhatelawyers
Ireallyhatelawyers 7 days ago

Aaaah yes -- isn't the airing of a dysfunctional family's dirty laundry wonderful?
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1Milliwatt RobLikeReply
Servus
Servus 6 days ago

@Ireallyhatelawyers A dysfunctional family with a lot of guns. Although I would wager that more often than not someone with a "collection" of guns is part of a dysfunctional family regardless... lol
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non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@Ireallyhatelawyers It could help others. It could save someone else's life.


You sound like a 1950s relic - "most of all we've got to hide it from the kids".
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survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

We are only hearing one side from a daughter who hated her father. There could be many reasons for her hate. Ever deal with an addict.

They always have their own version making them the sympathetic victim.
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230YearFamilyFriendIreallyhatelawyersLikeReply
Ireallyhatelawyers
Ireallyhatelawyers 6 days ago

@non sequitur @Ireallyhatelawyers This is just another case of public family bashing from the perspective of an estranged, recovering-addict daughter who is trying to validate herself. "I'm going to tell the world what kind of monster Daddy was!" Instead of talking to a reporter from NJ.com, she should be talking to a grief counsellor or her sponsor.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@Ireallyhatelawyers @non sequitur Really? Instead of trying to help other families who might be in a similar situation and not know whether to call the police or seek professional intervention?


Every murder/suicide of a couple is assumed to be "they fought, he pulled a gun, shot her, and then killed himself". In this case, the police were already involved because there were restraining orders. The question is, I wonder about the restraining order - was it clear both of the deceased wanted the restraining orders? Can one person who lives in a household get a restraining order against the will of a spouse living in the same household?


Something seems very odd about the restraining order taken out the day before she was killed. The circumstances of that restraining order and whether she was present and cognizant would be interesting and possibly set a precedent in cases of restraining orders pertaining to households with more than one adult.
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PookieButt
PookieButt 7 days ago

When people own lots of guns, eventually, the guns will be turned on someone. I don't get the fascination. If you want to own a gun, fine. But why collect them? Sort of crazy.
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2Servusfrankbooth23LikeReply
Milliwatt Rob
Milliwatt Rob 7 days ago

@PookieButt Not sure of the relevance of your comment to this case in particular. If you read the story, his children removed the entire collection except for one gun from the house. This crime only required one gun.
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14thelolsLikeReply
Servus
Servus 6 days ago

@Milliwatt Rob @PookieButt And then either sold them or turned them in at one of those "guns for cash" events? Or are they sitting in one or both of the sons homes? Just get rid of those tainted guns completely.
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BEFootball2009
BEFootball2009 7 days ago

@PookieButt - I tend to agree. I have no problem with people owning guns in their home for protection (though I question the actual need for most people). While I would not support a legal limit on the number owned, I do think people who own multiple guns like this in the 5, 10, 20 ranges are oddballs. Then again, that probably applies to any collecting since there is something compulsive about owning so many of one thing that you will almost never use.
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22sickofitServusLikeReply
2sickofit
2sickofit 6 days ago

@BEFootball2009 @PookieButt True -- although I don't think stamps ever killed anyone.
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

If you have been following this story, you would have read he was an avid hunter.
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Sandy
Sandy 7 days ago

Can someone please get Lori some help? She admits to thinking about suicide, that is a definite sign that she needs help!!
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3mia1013non sequiturSam SungLikeReply
survivedthereignofterror1
survivedthereignofterror1 6 days ago

I feel bad for her children who have to listen to that and live with it.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 7 days ago

Very sad. I assume they could tell about Alzheimer's or dementia post-mortem. But even if it was a murder/suicide pact, most couples would leave a note from each person detailing their decision.

The thing is, if your loved one is showing signs of dementia (completely ignoring whether the murderer was a vicious deluded bastard), get them checked out. Dementia and similar symptoms such as memory loss can be related to changes in prescription medications or other illnesses. The first course of action is to go to the doctor, review all medications, and do blood work and tests. If he "made the diagnosis" himself without a doctor and without following up with a doctor, then yes, he was a truly evil man. You cannot discount business being poor for him as well, especially if she had her hopes set on travel (conjecture).


I am always surprised that my MIL survived her father, who not only beat her mother and emotionally and verbally abused her, but actually punched my MIL in the face when she was 16 and tried to protect her mother (her mother was one of the nicest people on Earth). Yet no one wants to interfere - my spouse and his mom knew what his grandfather was, but no one thinks "this might lead to murder".


Ms. Bramhall, be well and do your best to stay away from people and things that might lead you back to drugs. The world needs sober people.
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bayshore lady
bayshore lady 7 days ago

@non sequitur The family cannot force their relative to seek medical treatement if they don't want to.It's easy to say "take them to the doctor,"but often much harder to do it.A person becomes an adult at 18,and doesn't lose the right to make their own decisions,and that right doesn't expire,unless a court says it does.Hindsight is 20/20.Perhaps Mrs. B should have realized thst her life was in danger,and left her husband.A very dad story/
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non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@bayshore lady @non sequitur If the person was regularly going to the doctor, they could be convinced to go. And if someone in their right mind (not that the gentleman was in his right mind) was very worried, that person could call a doctor and ask them to stop by.


Look - I know someone who got their spouse committed involuntarily, in NY state, with NO doctors' note or anything. She told her husband that they were visiting, for both of them to move in to the "apartment part" of a senior complex, but instead he ended up locked into an Alzheimer's ward. Don't act like it doesn't happen in real life, by well-meaning individuals.
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bayshore lady
bayshore lady 6 days ago

@non sequitur @bayshore lady All I can say,from experience,is that you cannot force an adult yo go to the doctor if they don't want to.Sure,some people are very creative,and can trick them into seeing a doctor.
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

His business was thriving. Any financial issues were a result of paying for rehab and bailing ppl out of jail, attorney fees, and being robbed by drug addicted family members.

There was a medical diagnoses that family and friends were apprise to; however ppl who knew Joan didn't need a formal diagnosis.

After what these two have been through, I am so happy they will both have eternal peace. Because their " loving daughter and her children " put them through HELL.
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130YearFamilyFriendLikeReply
BEFootball2009
BEFootball2009 7 days ago

I can appreciate the news value of the prior concerns and that the police were called for a welfare check. However, I am not sure I see the news value of the all encompassing interview (with someone who acknowledges drug and mental illness issues) that discusses the internal family problems, which child was the favorite, and the tensions between the children/parents. I realize Lori freely spoke about it, and was probably rambling at times; but I do not think it is appropriate for publication.
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3survivedthereignofterror1IreallyhatelawyersOrange DevilsLikeReply
Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com
Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com 7 days ago

@BEFootball2009 Hi, BEFootball2009. I appreciate your concerns, but I'll explain our thinking. We felt in particular, it was worthwhile to discuss the welfare check and the guns in the house (as well as Lori saying they were removed, which might suggest some concern about them being there). Those seemed very relevant, given what ultimately happened.

But we also thought, in particular since Lori's the only family member to go on the record with us so far, we should put the nature of her relationship with her parents in context, so people can judge for themselves what to make of her account. Is she the only one of the siblings who felt this way? Did anyone else have concerns? Did her difficult history with her father cloud her judgment about what was going on in the household ... or did it possibly tune her into things other people were missing? We can't answer those questions, in particular without hearing more sides from more people close to the situation, but we thought we should give the readers what information we had to judge for themselves.
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3byebyejcmcbushSam SungLikeReply
MWilson14
MWilson14 7 days ago

@Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com @BEFootball2009 Sorry, this is a stupid article. It's fine to talk about the guns, but by focusing on the daughter so much, including her own depression and suicidal thoughts, you are just pushing her more and more to the edge. I hope nothing bad happens to her now that you "outed" her so much. Bad job.
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1calicoLikeReply
non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@MWilson14 @Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com @BEFootball2009 It might help someone else. And to know others have difficult situations can help.
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

She made the choice to air her dirty laundry. She gets what she deserves.
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130YearFamilyFriendLikeReply
Shannon
Shannon 7 days ago

@Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com @BEFootball2009 This is probably the trashiest article I've ever read on this site. It is not appropriate to be writing about someone's mental state and posting it on this site. And I do believe I remember a writer on NJ.com explaining that it is illegal to report on a suicide if it was done in a private home (lets here the endless excuses). That doesn't apply here? Permission from the family or not-this article is disgusting and should be removed. Maybe you should try being a human being and alert authorities next time someone tells you they think about killing themselves. How's that for judgement?
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2MWilson14Loren FitzgeraldLikeReply
Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com
Louis C. Hochman | NJ.com 7 days ago

@Shannon I think you may have misunderstood what another writer said about reporting suicides. There's nothing illegal about it. The question is whether it's a responsible choice, and that varies a lot with the circumstances.


Our philosophy, like that of most news organizations, is that a death isn't made newsworthy simply by being a suicide, any more than heart attack is automatically newsworthy. But if there are other circumstances that make it worth reporting, we take a close look and decide what to do from there.

In this case, the suicide was in conjunction with a homicide — and homicides are pretty much always newsworthy. We wouldn't shy away from a story that involces a suicide in that case.

In this case, one of the deceased was also a very notable figure in local politics. We'd be writing a story about her death even from natural causes, because she had such an impact on the area.

There are other times when a suicide might be newsworthy. For instance, Tyler Clementi's death was believed to have been influenced in large part by Dharun Ravi's invasion of his privacy. Morristown teen Lennon Baldwin killed himself shortly after bullying incidents many believed were a factor. The broader circumstances, the criminal investigations into others involve, the impact on the community -- that all made those deaths worth reporting, as far as we're concerned.


Whether to report on a suicide isn't always an easy choice, and it's not one we make lightly. Others won't always agree with the decisions we make, and we respect that. But I'm always glad to explain the thinking behind them.
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22sickofitmorris75LikeReply
Iz11
Iz11 7 days ago

@BEFootball2009 In some way I was interested in the daughters thoughts/feelings in this tragic killing....but on the other hand, I have concerns about her giving out so much information as to her state of mind.
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non sequitur
non sequitur 6 days ago

@Iz11 @BEFootball2009 Mental health issues still have a stigma attached. If she was suffering from cancer and talked about dealing with that, everybody would be sympathetic. Instead, it seems like people respond with "why bother us with it?".
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Lds1019
Lds1019 5 days ago

She's an attention seeker.
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130YearFamilyFriendLikeReply
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[tomt]

Digital television transition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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[tomt]

[tomt]

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[tomt]

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[tomt]

@wilhelm woess @falstaff @zdzisiekm



indeed, Cervantes will no doubt,



provide all the electricity anyone could want.



or one could go to your local harbor freight tools ,



and get a solar kit like i did.



i am now 'off grid'.



(alas, no nukes available)

you armchair civic engineers, might get started today ...


Yingli advance in monocrystalline ingot formation: pv-magazine

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shomas 9 hours ago

Ohh gesh no. I don't want municipals owning the networks. One only need look at the higher cost electricity from municipally owner power plants versus comparable from the private sector to know that municipally owned networks would be slow to adopt new technologies. and more costly to provide the service.

Instead, the answer comes from cities doing what they can to encourage competition in the private sector. not ensuring there are just one or two players in any market.
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James Upshur 11 hours ago

The FCC has a system in place for telephone (both wireline and wireless) providers to report outages: The Network Outage Reporting System. It used to be publicly available.


This article makes the case for making outage reports public:

http://packetpushers.net/outages-suck-lets-share-action-reports/
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0.766007379719 13 hours ago

There is no meaningful reform with monopolies. They have market power, and they have a legal right to exercise it as long as the fcc keeps it that way and they will. Outages are statistically certain when there are no choices, and the monopoly has no benefit to being truthful about their up times. The best we can do is vote and write to congress.
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smilan 14 hours ago

While I was reading this text, more then thousand children died around the world from hunger or luck of medicine. Internet Outage, are you joking?
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Rigatoni 14 hours ago

@smilan Par for the course. Look at all the coverage and poutrage that violations of internet privacy get compared to (until very recently) shootings of unarmed black men. Offending the delicate sensibilities of the upper class will always cause more of a furore than straight-up murdering people from the lower class.
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AustinTX 1 day ago

I think you would benefit from the account of someone like me, who was up when the outage occurred and was actively troubleshooting it. I simply lost the ability to resolve DNS. Pinging and tracerouting the DNS servers timed out. But I was using Google DNS, not TWC.

I could still visit web pages, ping and traceroute, if I knew their IP address. I was still getting web hits and incoming email to my home servers, though at reduced volume. My email server was rejecting email because it could not verify SMTP server's domain names.

I rebooted my modem and router repeatedly. The modem always acquired it's link promptly, and the router got it's IP and WAN domain name. The modem's admin page showed it had normal operating status.

I switched configuration of my router to OpenDNS, Earthlink, Dell, and some other public DNS servers, but still could not resolve DNS. Connections simply timed out. I zeroed out the DNS config in my router and rebooted. DHCP picked up TWC's DNS servers like normal. Still could not resolve DNS! I don't recall if it timed out like other DNS servers, or not. Of course, I repeatedly checked connections by IP, which always worked. I have read a couple of accounts that DNS worked for TWC internal web pages, using their DNS server, but nothing external.

So what we had was not a general routing issue or loss of connectivity. The problem was with any transmission on port 53 (DNS) whether it was to TWC's DNS servers or another. This is REALLY specific. And technically confusing.

One explanation for the outage is that TWC intended to filter or transparently proxy all DNS traffic, and screwed up. Or, they have already been transparently proxying all DNS traffic, and the proxy failed. The proxy could be used to log this traffic. No ISP has any legitimate business monitoring this.