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Thread: What sparked your interest in Titfighting and Sexfighting?

  1. #11
    Senior Hostboard Member Gradius's Avatar
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    Re: What sparked your interest in Titfighting and Sexfightin

    Quote Originally Posted by catfightlover40 View Post
    I won't quote a whole reply as it would be too long, nonetheless... I need to start at the confirmation bias. The part about which one is the most common form of titfighting, despite lack of sample size and a use of a control group. It's undeniably a form of a fight, except that's already only confirms an action by two willing participants going against learned behavior (unless they're on the non-heterosexual spectrum). It's quite superfluous to ask/demand further information on a subject that is well known, like the persecution of anything beyond vanilla sex. The historiography is heteronormative, and through their lens, titfighting is a non-heterosexual act, therefore to be pursued as sodomy. I've claimed that there's plenty of lost knowledge as the ones who could elaborate have been broken or murdered.

    What isn't suppressed however is the extensive research on the effects of indoctrination of social/gender roles and female instinctive behavior. One among them is the mentioned use of secondary sexual characteristics to attract mates, in which they're selective. As our gestation period is longer than most animals and we're more adaptive to our surroundings, "mating season" is all year round, especially in light of the fact, that before the eradication of diseases killing mothers giving birth and young children before school age, women were expected to die young fulfilling a "sacred duty". "Dipping in the honey" became a priority as early as their 12th year, a "proud practice" still performed in half of America, it's a freedom of faith thing, kids' rights be damned. So on one level there's the instinctive behavior of turning away from those they don't wish to mate with, on the other the word of mouth homophobia. Whereas we men punish non-hetero normative behavior with extinction, women ostracize even on as little as a rumor or suspicion.

    It's very well sourced that once Christianity came into power, they have started an all out war on every value not originating from them, including things we take now for granted, like personal hygiene. The process of learning one's own body (a practice we know of existing in ancient Greece through surviving fragments) via sexually experiencing with one's own gender was also one of them. For two women who aren't inebriated (like Natalie Portman and Mila Kunis in Black Swan, to perform a kissing scene which should come natural to an actor) the competition of strictly fat and tissue is everything they were taught not to do. To start with the obvious, what's pleasurable for us, can easily be just painful for them, if not worse. One of the largest drawbacks of having large breasts is that they can't be entirely scanned for tumors, so one false move can lead to a slow death. The second thing is the fear of challenging the core of one's self, fighting someone without being attracted to them (unless, again, they're elsewhere on the Kinsey Scale).
    The reason I asked is because it sounds like a lot of the usual rhetoric you hear across the internet about women being oppressed. Especially when you start using words like Heteronormative, indoctrination and gender roles and the rather unhealthy obsession with acts committed by the Christians from long ago. News flash Christinaity wasn't the only religion to display homophobic tendencies nor was it the only religion to go to war with others (much like the one STILL at war and still kills homosexuals).

    So lets leave the politics out of it and focus on what we know. Yes, it is obvious that it came about from actions between women. My personal belief is that it originated the catch as catch can style of female fighting that originated in Europe, France I think it was. Since these were fights between women in front of only women.

  2. #12
    Senior Hostboard Member catfightlover40's Avatar
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    Re: What sparked your interest in Titfighting and Sexfightin

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    The reason I asked is because it sounds like a lot of the usual rhetoric you hear across the internet about women being oppressed. Especially when you start using words like Heteronormative, indoctrination and gender roles and the rather unhealthy obsession with acts committed by the Christians from long ago. News flash Christinaity wasn't the only religion to display homophobic tendencies nor was it the only religion to go to war with others (much like the one STILL at war and still kills homosexuals).

    So lets leave the politics out of it and focus on what we know. Yes, it is obvious that it came about from actions between women. My personal belief is that it originated the catch as catch can style of female fighting that originated in Europe, France I think it was. Since these were fights between women in front of only women.
    A llot of things have nothing to do with what you connect them to for starters. In short, you're looking for a validation as to why women, willingly at that, perform an act, one that if not violent, is very much a lesbian/bisexual or gender fluid act, for our amusement and where that started. In contrast, the arguments put forward on my side was that a lot of uncertainty was borne out of active persecution on our part. It doesn't matter what fuels social conservatism, may it be an organized faith or a social ideal, created and operated with little intake from women, as long its aim is to marginalize people, clouding the way to how it actually could have started. On a very basic level (even though it took us guys a few centuries) violent confrontations, like the ones you allude to, will never result in a titfight, rather a fight where breasts are valid targets of torture. The difference between a street fight and an Ali/Frazer match. Finding the origin isn't very easy even in the most liberal of circles as the scientific standard is higher than matters which can easily be sexualized. What it does take is an alliance of LGBT historians, sexologists, cultural anthropologists and other related fields to shine a light on them. I think you're familiar with Cristobal Colon's cheating nature, and the account of offering a reward for the first person who sees land, and when that happened, he refused to pay and proclaimed seeing land himself. He is by far not the only person who slighted others, or outright stole what others did in a society that tolerated, if not encouraged such actions (like how the first act after driving out the caliphate, the Spaniards ordered the expulsion of Jews to the New World).

    Having opinions is a great thing, even if it's unpopular, but actively wanting to ignore why things happen is not. You and by conjecture, I know about this French fight (actually covered in the origins of vaudeville as entertainment for the poor after comedia dell' arte was invented) because it was researched, but if others had the sentiment that "we should only focus on what we know" science would have died a long time ago.
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  3. #13
    Senior Hostboard Member Gradius's Avatar
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    Re: What sparked your interest in Titfighting and Sexfightin

    Quote Originally Posted by catfightlover40 View Post
    A llot of things have nothing to do with what you connect them to for starters. In short, you're looking for a validation as to why women, willingly at that, perform an act, one that if not violent, is very much a lesbian/bisexual or gender fluid act, for our amusement and where that started. In contrast, the arguments put forward on my side was that a lot of uncertainty was borne out of active persecution on our part. It doesn't matter what fuels social conservatism, may it be an organized faith or a social ideal, created and operated with little intake from women, as long its aim is to marginalize people, clouding the way to how it actually could have started. On a very basic level (even though it took us guys a few centuries) violent confrontations, like the ones you allude to, will never result in a titfight, rather a fight where breasts are valid targets of torture. The difference between a street fight and an Ali/Frazer match. Finding the origin isn't very easy even in the most liberal of circles as the scientific standard is higher than matters which can easily be sexualized. What it does take is an alliance of LGBT historians, sexologists, cultural anthropologists and other related fields to shine a light on them. I think you're familiar with Cristobal Colon's cheating nature, and the account of offering a reward for the first person who sees land, and when that happened, he refused to pay and proclaimed seeing land himself. He is by far not the only person who slighted others, or outright stole what others did in a society that tolerated, if not encouraged such actions (like how the first act after driving out the caliphate, the Spaniards ordered the expulsion of Jews to the New World).

    Having opinions is a great thing, even if it's unpopular, but actively wanting to ignore why things happen is not. You and by conjecture, I know about this French fight (actually covered in the origins of vaudeville as entertainment for the poor after comedia dell' arte was invented) because it was researched, but if others had the sentiment that "we should only focus on what we know" science would have died a long time ago.
    You realise that by putting "gender fluid" (which I personally don't believe in) you're giving the impression that guys claiming to be women took part in titfights. And when you say our part...are you saying that you personally took part in oppressing LGBT? I never did and if someone was to tell me I should feel bad about it I'd give them the finger. If we keep trying to blame people for actions of far removed ancestors then the blame game would never end.

    And I do consider myself something of a history buff since it's the one subject I got a distinction (99%-100% grade) in. As such I'm well aware of Christianity's questionable past, but I think it's getting way too much credit when it's the one religion that actually evolved while others remain static and no one seems inclined to point it out (or rather they get accused of phobia's for doing so).

    On topic I can relate to your point and it could have started even as far back as during the Roman Empire when sexual experimentation was common place.

  4. #14
    Junior Hostboard Member BrigidD's Avatar
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    Re: What sparked your interest in Titfighting and Sexfightin

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    You realise that by putting "gender fluid" (which I personally don't believe in) you're giving the impression that guys claiming to be women took part in titfights. And when you say our part...are you saying that you personally took part in oppressing LGBT? I never did and if someone was to tell me I should feel bad about it I'd give them the finger. If we keep trying to blame people for actions of far removed ancestors then the blame game would never end.

    And I do consider myself something of a history buff since it's the one subject I got a distinction (99%-100% grade) in. As such I'm well aware of Christianity's questionable past, but I think it's getting way too much credit when it's the one religion that actually evolved while others remain static and no one seems inclined to point it out (or rather they get accused of phobia's for doing so).

    On topic I can relate to your point and it could have started even as far back as during the Roman Empire when sexual experimentation was common place.
    Don?t you think you guys are taking this a little too far? I think titfighting has been going on since the first two women fought.

  5. #15
    Senior Hostboard Member catfightlover40's Avatar
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    Re: What sparked your interest in Titfighting and Sexfightin

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    You realise that by putting "gender fluid" (which I personally don't believe in) you're giving the impression that guys claiming to be women took part in titfights. And when you say our part...are you saying that you personally took part in oppressing LGBT? I never did and if someone was to tell me I should feel bad about it I'd give them the finger. If we keep trying to blame people for actions of far removed ancestors then the blame game would never end.

    And I do consider myself something of a history buff since it's the one subject I got a distinction (99%-100% grade) in. As such I'm well aware of Christianity's questionable past, but I think it's getting way too much credit when it's the one religion that actually evolved while others remain static and no one seems inclined to point it out (or rather they get accused of phobia's for doing so).

    On topic I can relate to your point and it could have started even as far back as during the Roman Empire when sexual experimentation was common place.
    Ah yes, I do recall the immortal words of Thomas Jefferson for there being a need for a bathroom bill in the Carolinas... that's the first misconception. It can be only considered history, if sexual minorities will be ascended to acts, bills and laws protecting their civil rights, up until then it remains contemporary. The second misconception comes from calling subjects politics, when it's somebody else's life. How did we all take part in it, even if you reject the notion? That's a typical where to begin question... People outside the widely known heterosexual norm did not sprung up overnight, they have always existed. Just to be clear, being something on it's own isn't that big a virtue, so it's not about Mr. or Mrs. X belonged to this group, while (s)he invented/introduced that famous thing. It's about not neglecting that we are not the only ones contributing.

    Yes, the original musing was where the whole thing started, and it definitely wasn't a violent act. Kama Sutra has but categorized things already in existence, and yet from a lot we don't hear about. That's because of a dual sin of both dispatching the ones doing it and for erasing them from history. As for having changed... not everywhere. 27 states still refuse to disallow marriages to children as young as 12 if they get pregnant, in a country that's supposedly leads everyone else in separating from church.

    I'm a warm blooded man, so yes, I do have a thing for erotic competition between women, which puts me in a minority. About 15 years ago on a different site a guy said that even in today's world a mayor of a major city can openly admit of being gay, but fans of such fights will not likely to come out as it would lead to universal condemnation. I don't have a switch, I don't pretend just because I'm a straight guy I'm like the rest of them in every aspect. In fact, people preceding us have been hunted by the feds for simply reading smut, a sentiment only changed due to expanding civil rights. Irving Klaw destroyed a lot of his material before that, finally giving up. You might personally not like it, but we have way more in common with fellow fetishists than with fellow straight guys, so at the bare minimum, we should act as a member of the community.

    A nonviolent confrontation like a sexfight isn't just serviceable to be part of an experiment, rather to know one's own body. It wasn't until the 1990s that the first bra was produced that provided comfort for women, and it continues to be a phenomenon that even women themselves are unaware of the correct cup size and what influences it due to lack of organized education on the matter. As a kid, I liked the books of a Wild West author, but it wasn't until I became an adult that I learned translations have omitted quite a bit about German supremacy and Native submissiveness (thereby totally changing the message). Similarly, authors like Burroughs, Doyle and Kipling wrote fantasy about yet to be explored regions, not because everything was discovered, rather because all lacked the willingness to explore other people around them, a grave sin in my eyes for an author. Women compare each other mentally, at times verbally, rarely on the physical plane. If and when they do, it's even rarer that sex organs play a significant role, so unless they're not bi or lesbians, there's good reason (mostly money) for doing so, and it's a motivation worth exploring, and definitely not just from our view, as that was the only we've known for a long time. They're as people as we're, so they deserve to be as authentic a character as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BrigidD View Post
    Don?t you think you guys are taking this a little too far? I think titfighting has been going on since the first two women fought.
    I don't share that view. Sexuality for women, outside wartime, has not been much of an act of pleasure before the freedom of contraceptives and the derivative choices coming from the sexual revolution. So much in fact, that when the first department store catalogues came around, the first electric thing advertised was a motorized vibrator, predating fridges by a decade.

    There's a difference between fighting another person and bringing sensitive body parts into the mix, especially considering how both genders where only taught sex is for procreation, and where the eggplant emoji goes. Breasts being the weapon (mostly as foreplay) is more likely to be around since lesbians and bisexual women exist, but as confrontational ones... probably not with the first two women, even if they did not know what cancer or breast cancer was, they still did know that lacerations, lesions to sensitive areas lead to internal bleeding and highly likely, death, at a time before antibiotics, or any other disinfectant.

    Plus the ongoing debate is way more about the importance of inclusion (treating tit- and sexfighters as humans and not just pleasure bots for our amusement) than about correctly pinpointing something known mostly from apocryphal sources.
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    Senior Hostboard Member Gradius's Avatar
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    Re: What sparked your interest in Titfighting and Sexfightin

    How exactly does being a man put you into a minority when it comes to enjoying erotic competition between women? And the wording of your post has me confused. Is it that 27 states WON'T allow marriages to children as young as 12? I don't think that has anything to do with the church so much as it just going against Western sensibilities. I'm not American but I know that if someone got one of my nieces pregnant or was sniffing around my nephew I'd most definetly get violent.

    But hey, if that's what floats your boat you can head to the Middle East. They still allow that kind of thing.

  7. #17
    Hostboard Member rusty73's Avatar
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    Re: What sparked your interest in Titfighting and Sexfightin

    I gotta say this is more than I was expecting when I posted this question. All in all interesting responses.

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    Senior Hostboard Member catfightlover40's Avatar
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    Re: What sparked your interest in Titfighting and Sexfightin

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    How exactly does being a man put you into a minority when it comes to enjoying erotic competition between women? And the wording of your post has me confused. Is it that 27 states WON'T allow marriages to children as young as 12? I don't think that has anything to do with the church so much as it just going against Western sensibilities. I'm not American but I know that if someone got one of my nieces pregnant or was sniffing around my nephew I'd most definetly get violent.

    But hey, if that's what floats your boat you can head to the Middle East. They still allow that kind of thing.
    Extremely funny, but if I can refrain from ad hominem, so can you. First up, you read it right the first time, not only is it a practice in America, involving at least 500 kids a year, and 90% of them because they're pregnant, but it's a practice nigh impossible to abolish because communities interpret it as religious freedom. To continue misconceptions, it's not a Middle Eastern thing, all Abrahamic branches have such followers, and it's closely tied to silencing victims of such abuse. In an ideal world, it would be a like a swamp thing (i.e. Alabama) except the practice is observed in states like New Jersey and New York. It's not merely a Western sensibility, unless you count a UN declaration on the rights of children or women as a Western sensibility.

    Second, it seems I have to circle back to Claw, and artists he had commissioned, like the legendary Eric Stanton. A whopping six decades ago, owning or seeking such material was publicly viewed as degenerate and subversive to the point of suspicion on being a communist (which is ironic because communists viewed erotic fiction as petit bourgeois decadence and imperialist). Even when the recently deceased Hugh Hefner has started out with Playboy, he wished to play it safe, so it wasn't until Larry Flint, who rode the wake of the civil rights movement to end the oppression on accessing erotica (and the same racist guy who targeted blacks tried to killed him for it). While plenty a facet of erotica became mainstream thanks to the sexual revolution, this subject... not so much. Fans of such fetish could only cease to be a minority if they could openly proclaim of being attracted to it. There's a reason why places like these are small in frequency, it's viewed as a guilty pleasure, but it's more like knowing much more about rumors surrounding it, than the actual subject. There was one magazine, Cavalier catering to such needs and that went away to, so the peer behavior is very similar to other minorities.
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    Senior Hostboard Member Gradius's Avatar
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    Re: What sparked your interest in Titfighting and Sexfightin

    Fair enough, it was an unnecessary low blow. However I never understood the need for the UN to "declare" anything, much less an obvious right. The only way it'd be necessary is in countries where women and children are openly abused...as in not the West (despite what many try to make you believe). But either way lets agree to disagree and stop derailing a simple thread on a simple question.

  10. #20
    Senior Hostboard Member catfightlover40's Avatar
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    Re: What sparked your interest in Titfighting and Sexfightin

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Fair enough, it was an unnecessary low blow. However I never understood the need for the UN to "declare" anything, much less an obvious right. The only way it'd be necessary is in countries where women and children are openly abused...as in not the West (despite what many try to make you believe). But either way lets agree to disagree and stop derailing a simple thread on a simple question.
    To be accurate, I've merely delivered a detailed answer on the origin of the subject, the derailment only happened after things got conflated. One would think rights are obvious an unalienable, but it would be wrong. Long story short, decolonization was not followed by a global cultural exchange, so when the expansion of commerce started to signal its effects, the first waves of bigotry reared its ugly head, and it was inly amplified by the massive food/fuel and financial crises. In times of doubt, those wishing and wanting to keep life simple so they don't have to partake in decision making beyond voting, are prone to be attracted to populist tunes, chief among them advocating local superiority.

    As for agree to disagree, I don't support the misconception that all is fine and dandy with us, compared to less industrialized regions, as that's objectively not the case. Nobody expects anyone here to be a professor emeritus, and accordingly, having ignorant traits is only human. That being said, my beef is with wanting to have the cake and eat it too. If a person is only interested in the sheer eroticism of a titfight/sexfight, and not the person behind them, the honorable thing is to own up to it, instead of trying a gaslight game, where such people are the good guys and everyone else is a shrieking, agenda driven activist. That in itself is built on the untruth which proclaims less than curiosity driven opinions to be one of the majority when in fact they're but a loud minority.

    I concede to this, it's way easier to pinpoint where we straight men could finally for the first and limited time (until Reagan and Falwell came along) enjoy smut openly, of which titfight/sexfight forms a titillating part, but that's our relation to the product, not the phenomenon. That can only be explored by treating its actors with the dignity they deserve, starting by not trying to force them to perform our fantasy.
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