A Liberal's Pledge to Disheartened Conservatives ...by Michael Moore

**feelinggreat** · November 20th, 2006, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by senorina:
so you admit that it was meant to be rude.

finally.

Well, I pointed out your post was rude.

Or are you speaking a different language?

**senorina** · November 21st, 2006, 04:57 AM

Originally posted by funkycamper:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by senorina:

I said it was sarcastic and condesending in response to the comment that it was just a nice letter meant as an olive branch. If you can't see that MM was trying to be rude, than there is no help for you.

Look, you're saying the letter is sarcastic and condescending doesn't make it so. You offered no reasons why it was rude or condescending other than calling into question the statements Moore was making about several specific issues and saying that he was wrong about them. Yet, there is ample evidence out there to refute your statements and to show that he is, indeed, correct in his statements.

Your conclusion that "there is no help for" anyone who disagrees with you on the rudeness factor of Moore's letter is way out there, imho. You state it as fact when, in fact, it is opinion. And we're all allowed to have our own opinions.

Opinions can be neither right nor wrong...because they're just opinions. However, facts can be right or wrong.<hr /></blockquote>wrong. and I will even tell you why.

I believe that I only cited one statement that was wrong, the one about equal pay for women.

the other ststements I did not call into question his rightness or wrongness, just the fact that he accused conservatives of lying and cheating.

I don't see that as an olive branch.

AND - all of you who are PMing me saying you agree with me and are horrified at this post - get in here! [img]wink.gif[/img]

**maddercow** · November 21st, 2006, 09:39 AM

It seems that this pledge hit a nerve for some.

I suspect MM's audience is a liberal one who greatly appreciate his satirical writing.

Others seem to be greatly offended.

Oh well.

**funkycamper** · November 22nd, 2006, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by senorina:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by funkycamper:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by senorina:

I said it was sarcastic and condesending in response to the comment that it was just a nice letter meant as an olive branch. If you can't see that MM was trying to be rude, than there is no help for you.

Look, you're saying the letter is sarcastic and condescending doesn't make it so. You offered no reasons why it was rude or condescending other than calling into question the statements Moore was making about several specific issues and saying that he was wrong about them. Yet, there is ample evidence out there to refute your statements and to show that he is, indeed, correct in his statements.

Your conclusion that "there is no help for" anyone who disagrees with you on the rudeness factor of Moore's letter is way out there, imho. You state it as fact when, in fact, it is opinion. And we're all allowed to have our own opinions.

Opinions can be neither right nor wrong...because they're just opinions. However, facts can be right or wrong.<hr /></blockquote>wrong. and I will even tell you why.

I believe that I only cited one statement that was wrong, the one about equal pay for women.

the other ststements I did not call into question his rightness or wrongness, just the fact that he accused conservatives of lying and cheating.

I don't see that as an olive branch.

AND - all of you who are PMing me saying you agree with me and are horrified at this post - get in here! [img]wink.gif[/img] <hr /></blockquote>I'm so stunned that anyone would take offense at a post saying that opinions can neither be right nor wrong but are, simply opinions, that I'm not sure how to respond to this. All of you hiding behind PMS and afraid to post here, let me ask you this: If I say, "In my opinion, red is the prettiest color", am I wrong just because some of you prefer yellow or blue or green? If so, yikes!

As for your statement of "the other ststements I did not call into question his rightness or wrongness, just the fact that he accused conservatives of lying and cheating."....well, where did he do that?

He does say:

12. We will not tolerate politicians who are corrupt and who are bought and paid for by the rich. We will go after any elected leader who puts him or herself ahead of the people. And we promise you we will go after the corrupt politicians on our side FIRST. If we fail to do this, we need you to call us on it. Simply because we are in power does not give us the right to turn our heads the other way when our party goes astray. Please perform this important duty as the loyal opposition.

Yes, there are corrupt and "bought and paid for" politicians. Or don't the names Delay, Ney, and Foley ring a bell? Do you deny they existed and that they were protected by their fellow elected officials for quite awhile after their actions were known?

Yes, both sides have 'em. I'm totally embarressed that William Jefferson (D-Louisiana) might be re-elected. I'm really hoping that he loses the December 9th run-off election. But at least the Democratic Party recruited someone to oppose him in the primary and didn't lend him any support or endorsements during his re-election campaign. And they did this without intense media attention and scrutiny. Unlike what was necessary to oust Foley and Delay.

I realize that there will be dirty Democrats who slip through the cracks and I would be very upset with my party if it ignores these folks. So, yes, you make a true statement in that there are corrupt politicians on both sides. But you fail to recognize the deliberate attempts to conceal this corruption by Delay, Hastert, and other members of the Republican leadership these last few years.

I don't understand why you want to deny the fact that these things happened. These events are well known and well documented.

**wimminrule** · November 24th, 2006, 07:21 PM

I saw the letter as an olive branch as well. Hopeful. [img]biggrin.gif[/img] unno:

RE: wimmin making as much as men - BS. Last I heard it was still about a 10% difference in the same types of jobs.

**onelove** · November 24th, 2006, 09:01 PM

I don't think it was an olive branch.

Try thinking about a Republican pundit saying something like this in a similar letter.

1. We respect life. We promise to protect your unborn children, not just those of Republicans. While we are in power not one more of your precious children will be legally killed before they are born."

He is presenting as positive things that many conservatives find objectionable. He acts like they should be grateful for these changes even if they disagree with them.

I don't think the causes he champions are wrong. I just don't think it is as friendly as ya'all are portraying it. It's sort of a back handed snarky mother-in-law kind of missive.

**feelinggreat** · November 24th, 2006, 10:17 PM

Funky thought it was an olive branch. A lot of Democrats may consider it to be such also because we have seen no such thing from the Republican controlled Administration and Congress. Divisiveness has ruled the day since Bush took office.

Michael Moore himself did not say it was an olive branch that I can see. He NEVER promised to make everyone 100% satisfied. Of course finding fault with Funky's characterization is a better tack for Republicans than considering the issues that MM brings up. He said something very UN-republican and with an attitude that has been sorely lacking in recent years.

He said:

I promise all of the above to you because this is your country, too. [i]You are every bit as American as we are.[/] We are all in this together. We sink or swim as one. Thank you for your years of service to this country and for giving us the opportunity to see if we can make things a bit better for our 300 million fellow Americans -- and for the rest of the world.

Why is that concept so very hard for conservatives to understand?

**onelove** · November 24th, 2006, 10:24 PM

I think his postions are right more often than not. I think his condemnations of the actions of the Republican party are fair enough.

The snark comes from him addressing it to conservatives, and couching it in pseudo concilliatory language.

**feelinggreat** · November 24th, 2006, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by onelove:
I think his postions are right more often than not. I think his condemnations of the actions of the Republican party are fair enough.

The snark comes from him addressing it to conservatives, and couching it in pseudo concilliatory language.

I hear you but I think it's laughable to read the same Republicans complain about this who turned a deaf ear to Mr. Go Cheney Yourself and Mr. Everyone Who Doesn't Vote My Way Is a Traitor...

**funkycamper** · November 24th, 2006, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by onelove:
[QB]1. We respect life. We promise to protect your unborn children, not just those of Republicans. While we are in power not one more of your precious children will be legally killed before they are born."

Concerning anything that would have to do with women's reproductive health issues and abortion, Michael Moore wrote:

8. We will never stick our nose in your bedroom or your womb. What you do there as consenting adults is your business. We will continue to count your age from the moment you were born, not the moment you were conceived.

Onelove, can you not see the fundamental difference between Moore's statement and your hypothetical Republican one?

Moore is saying, basically, that we'll respect your beliefs and whatever personal decision you make. Your example of a Republican counterpoint is saying, basically, that we have no respect for your personal belief or desire, it's "our way or the highway."

One shows respects and seeks to expand individual choice and independence. The other shows contempt and seeks to limit choices and independence.

So, yes, Moore's statement was basically an olive branch saying "we'll respect your choice". Your example was saying "we don't respect your choice" and, thus, is no olive branch.

Thread: A Liberal's Pledge to Disheartened Conservatives ...by Michael Moore

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