ROCK CONCERTS

**scott fitlin** · October 17th, 2005, 08:54 PM

And yet, this is what the market wants!

**LICORNE** · October 17th, 2005, 10:17 PM

Most professional singer will have a good clean and clear sound. I prefer sitting behind the FOH
engineer.I heard the transition from ALTEC LANSING TO JBL. Sports venues need these concerts
to close their year end.In Montreal you get the wave from 3 sides the U.S.A., U.K.and FRANCE. The French have good ballad singer some of our songs by Synatra And Elvis Presley to name a few came from over seas.

Some Artist start their tour here, more in the clasical gendre.

The young pro Artist with "screaming fans" is a problem for anny fOH engineer.

ALTEC LANSING OR GPA SPEAKERS BECAUSE OF THEIR
MID FREQUENCY CLARITY would be of help in such circumstances.

..................................................

[ October 26, 2007 08:45 PM: Message edited by: CONVERGENCE ]

[ October 26, 2007 08:59 PM: Message edited by: CONVERGENCE ]

**tomdae** · October 18th, 2005, 08:47 PM

Hi BOB R.
You wrote
----------------------------------------------------
However, the basic tenets of `good sound' are relatively unchanged since essentially codified in the early 1980s (by David Clark): flat frequency response, low distortion / noise,.
----------------------------------------------------
This is true, but its not all. In fact it seems to me, that most new speaker designer consider this as most important, in line with high SPL. They measure, they dont listen. Altec was made for those who listened. Thats why the almost unmeasurable part of dynamic behaviour while reproducing complex sounds of different instruments is so well mastered by altec speakers.
High wattage, overhung voice coils may have their
charisma, but they will not bring that realistic sound altec had with lightweight underhung voicecoils. Altecs were fabricated with precision and love, with the goal to sound as realistic as possible. The realism of playback behaviour of a loudspeaker cant be measured (yet?), it must be heard. Line array systems may sound very impressive, but not as realistic as altecs do.

**joyspring** · October 19th, 2005, 02:54 AM

tomdee:

(on flat frequency response, low distortion/noise, `criteria of good sound')

This is true, but its not all.

I also did mention directivity in the context of loudspeakers but I ought to have been more specific: flat frequency response over a wide coverage angle yielding good power response.

What else am I forgetting?

In fact it seems to me, that most new speaker designer consider this as most important,

Researchers in the field of psychoacoustics have determined this long ago, which is why engineers - old and new - have channeled their efforts into attaining flat frequency response and low noise/distortion.

Again, what is it that all these researchers and engineers are neglecting?

in line with high SPL.

...to increase headroom and decrease distortion at normal listening levels to track the significant improvements in dynamic range and signal-to-noise ratio with improving media...

Have a look at Altec literature from their halcyon days of the 1950s-1970s...

What attributes are highly prominent? High efficiency. Low distortion. High sound pressure level.

In fact, Altec was one of the few companies that prominently featured `maximum sound pressure level at maximum rated electrical input power' on specification sheets.

It would not be too far of a stretch to say that Altec initiated the `SPL Wars'.

They measure, they dont listen.

Oh dear, this statement exhibits utter ignorance of how audio products are designed and manufactured...

Yes, listening tests are the final evaluation of any audio product, particularly transducers (microphones, loudspeakers). However, listening evaluations are the last step in the process.

Normally, we set performance specs based upon what marketing desires or less often, what engineers aspire to achieve. We design. We measure. We revise. We measure. We revise again. We measure.

This cycle continues until the performance specs are met or exceeded. ONLY THEN do we even bother to listen, and nearly every time, meeting performance criteria based on lab measurements is reflected in subjective review.

Floyd Toole, former researcher at the Canadian NRC and now vice-president of Acoustical Engineering at Harmon Int'l has a now-famous statement regarding audio engineering:

`Science in the service of art'

His research culminating in an excellent keynote address at the 111th AES Convention regarding the commendable effort to standardise loudspeaker listening evaluations.

His findings concur with traditional criteria of good sound: people prefer loudspeakers that have flat frequency response, low distortion and good, even power response (flat frequency response off-axis). He also noted that the European Broadcast Union Tech Document 3276-1998 regarding loudspeaker system frequency response tolerance is not stringent enough.

This excellent address is featured in The Audio Critic, issue no. 28. An EXCELLENT, rational publication I might add...

As an aside, based upon this article I retired my Yamaha NS-10 monitors to the closet and purchased an excellent set of Mackie HR824 powered monitors which have advertised (and measured) flat response - within +/- 1.5 dB, 40 - 20000 hz. Dr. Toole is absolutely correct: there's nothing quite like flat response!

The subjectivists' retort about equipment that `measures well but sounds terrible' is an extremely rare occurance; in my experience, it is usually caused by improper measurement techniques or subjectivist reviewers `listening' with their eyes.

Altec was made for those who listened.

I certainly hope so; I reckon it would be quite difficult to market loudspeakers to the deaf.

Thats why the almost unmeasurable part of dynamic behaviour while reproducing complex sounds of different instruments is so well mastered by altec speakers.

Pray tell, what is this `almost unmeasurable part of dynamic behaviour'???

I've not heard of this, nor have I seen it in JAES, JASA, Proceedings of the IEEE, etc. I'm quite fascinated and madly desire to learn what this is.

And since many of the Altec (Anaheim) engineers moved on to competing audio manufacturers, why haven't these other companies ever attained mastery of this elusive characteristic?

Not to say that this doesn't exist; perhaps psychoacoustic researchers haven't found it yet. Still, it's quite odd that Altec would have exclusive mastery of this some thirty years on...

High wattage, overhung voice coils may have their charisma, but they will not bring that realistic sound altec had with lightweight underhung voicecoils.

No, actually they provide even *more* realistic sound, particularly since many of these new, high-wattage drivers have an order-of-magnitude lower distortion than vintage Altec drivers at the same sound pressure level.

There's something to be said about flux control, extensive heat-sinking and computer-optimisation of magnetic circuits, something that was not available to engineers during the reign of Altec.

Altecs were fabricated with precision and love, with the goal to sound as realistic as possible.

Altecs were definitely fabricated with precision prior to the mid-late 1970s; not so certain about love but it's a statistical certainty that there were more than a few fetishists at any given time working for Altec.

The realism of playback behaviour of a loudspeaker cant be measured (yet?), it must be heard.

Yet. At least in one measurement.

However, we can assess the quality of a loudspeaker system with an array of measurements and guess what? We measure for flat frequency response, low distortion and good power response!

Now is this realistic??? For a reference monitor loudspeaker???:

Altec 604E frequency response curve

Remember, the vertical scale is compressed to 20 dB...

BobR

**LICORNE** · October 19th, 2005, 04:07 AM

Hi Bob

I would use the 604 k refence instead."polar and frequency response curve."

http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...-8k/page05.jpg

[url="http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/specs/components/604-8k/page04.jpg"]]

**gearjammer** · October 19th, 2005, 07:31 AM

Hi BobR I have to side with you and believe you hit a grand slam with your reply!!!

Now where is that dude that is going to show up and claim 1930,s Western Electric **** has never been surpassed by any one to this day?

**417 - Alnico** · October 19th, 2005, 10:03 AM

I like BobR's posts because you can tell he would not waste his time here if he did not have a fondness for Altec in general.
I learn a lot and like his non-dogmatic, 'not blind loyalty' approach to subjects.

**scott fitlin** · October 19th, 2005, 04:09 PM

I have a question about specs -vs- actual sound.

How come some gear, particularly tube amps, are noticeably rolled off in the high frequencies when measured on a scope, yet, sound so extended through speakers when playing music, despite what the measurements say?

Conversely, I have heard certain solid state amps, that have measured frequency response to 50K, and make some speakers sound gated and band limited in the high frequency!

**scott fitlin** · October 19th, 2005, 04:54 PM

Westlake says>>>>>>>>>

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/a...chmentid=10551

**homme_de_terre** · October 19th, 2005, 07:56 PM

First, I want to emphasize that I appreciate BobR's contributions for essentially the same reasons 417 pointed out. BobR and Don gave me just enough enough information on x-overs and time alignment that I could improve my system without wasting money (and time) on an inferior approach. (active vs. passive)
Plus, he made me grasp why "nice" polar plots are desirable - the power response issue.

Second, I think I know who the scientist is that Todd mentioned. Once in a while he posts on the AA High Efficiency forum.
Shortly after Todd had posted his impressions of that audio show I was bold enough to ponder out loud how he, the scientist, liked "the other" great sounding system.
It took not long for him to show up, not to share his impressions but to give everybody a lecture about why his approach is superior to all others, and why he doesn't bother listening to speakers with a less than ideal power response - the horn still is too small... forums

The thread ended up as an almost-flamewar - everybody had a good time ;-)
I never had the chance to listen to his speakers but I bet they sound pretty good.
Here's what he said about "sound": "I try and make accurate loudspeakers not 'great sounding ones' ".

IMO, this is exactly the crux and here's why:

What's his particular perception of "accurateness" when it comes to sound reproduction?
I don't want to question his theories at all, I just doubt that psycho-acoustics with regard to sound reproduction is fully understood yet.
I always start feeling uneasy when a vendor attempts telling me what is best for me and why the competition's offers are inferior.
As to scientists/engineers, my experience is that some of them tend to behave rather hubristically when their methodologies or theories are being questioned by "profane" people. Open-mindedness on both sides should help both sides to get a clearer image in an even shorter time; I don't think that this could be considered unscientific. Just a different science, maybe a more holistic approach.

BTW Todd, could you tell me more of the recording you mentioned? Can I order it at Amazon? When I first listened to Mercury's Living Presence reissue of the Firebird on SACD over the 604s it blew my socks off. Dorati/Firebird at Amazon
How come that, back then, those sound engineers could make such stunning recordings with the - compared to today's standard - little and flawed equipment they had at hand? Maybe passion and love to music had something to do with it? forums

Manfred

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