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Thread: Using Higher Voltage Rated Film Caps in ALTEC Crossovers

  1. #11
    Senior Hostboard Member mah's Avatar
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    Re: Using Higher Voltage Rated Film Caps in ALTEC Crossovers

    604man,

    The "Sound Of Capacitors" web article is regularly referenced to support various opinions held by those who tweak audio components. Unfortunately the article has shortcomings, at least in methodology and thus conclusions.

    I don't wish to side-track this thread so I have posted a new one.
    Opinion is only as valid as its verifiable supporting evidence.

  2. #12
    Hostboard Member Nickd's Avatar
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    Re: Using Higher Voltage Rated Film Caps in ALTEC Crossovers

    I had seen that video posted before.
    perfect for the university crowd. "Nothing to see here" type of folks.

    I would only say that we know far less about the human body then we know about sound reproduction.
    With an open mind and a willingness to explore, perhaps in another 25 years we may know a tiny bit more about both.

    As for me, I intend to build, listen, read and learn until they put me 6' under.

  3. #13
    Senior Hostboard Member Elitopus1's Avatar
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    Re: Using Higher Voltage Rated Film Caps in ALTEC Crossovers

    Quote Originally Posted by LowOhms View Post
    - - - Updated - - -



    ----------------------------------------


    My favorite eBay supplier :

    4X 0 68 uf 500V Russian Hybrid PIO Capcitors K75 10 New | eBay

    You will need four caps. With 500 volt rated caps, they are reusable in DIY tube amps, I have them where I can fit them in my SET 45 amps, as a bypass. :-)

    If your stock ALTEC crossovers have the original stock caps in them, ( Pyramid ?? as I recall ) the stock ALTEC film caps of that era are a very weak link and should be replaced. Before doing so, just parallel across each stock 18uF cap, a 0.68 uF K75-10 0.68 / 500V., and LISTEN to what that does. Gain direct listening experience for yourself.

    Its NOT $800 for four caps either !! Under 25 dollars shipped !!

    re: Biamping : IMHO, IF ( a big word, my Daddy told me ) you have really good amps, you are best-off using a good passive speaker-level crossover, and having ONE amp's time constant and signature on the A7. Especially if you know how to build a good SET with zero negative feedback, and a great power supply. KISS rules, in highest-end audio. The best amps I have heard on ALTECS will all be under five watts, under $20K, two stage, always direct coupled, with LOTSA performance capability in the milliwatt range.

    Have fun.

    Jeff
    Thats interesting about not biamping the A7's. They do sound really nice hooked up to a SE 6bq5 amp I have. My only complaint is I can't turn them up loud enough.
    I use Ashly mosfet amps most of the time. Low distortion and very nice sound.

    I should probably pick one pair of speakers to invest time and money into. I have the A7 setup, some 817a cabs with JBL 2360 horns, and some smaller DIY 414b based speakers in the living room. I would like to pick one pair and use really good parts to try to get the most out of them. I think playing around with different caps is a good way to start.

    That is a good buy on the K75-10

  4. #14
    Senior Hostboard Member LowOhms's Avatar
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    Re: Using Higher Voltage Rated Film Caps in ALTEC Crossovers

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickd View Post
    I had seen that video posted before.
    perfect for the university crowd. "Nothing to see here" type of folks.

    I would only say that we know far less about the human body then we know about sound reproduction.
    With an open mind and a willingness to explore, perhaps in another 25 years we may know a tiny bit more about both.

    As for me, I intend to build, listen, read and learn until they put me 6' under.

    Cool post. In post #2 of this thread, you suggest This :



    "If you want to hear something fun, try some of the Jupiter flat stacked copper and wax caps. Bit of "magic" in those indeed."



    I have since looked up those Jupiter caps, and the do get good comments on Klipsch Forum, etc.

    Have YOU tried them? What could you share with us on your LISTENING experiences with them. ??

    For me, ( or any one else to "try" them ) takes a $600 to $800 dollar entry fee, for four cap positions in our ALTEC crossovers. What can you tell us you hear with them??

    TIA,

    Jeff

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitopus1 View Post
    Thats interesting about not biamping the A7's. They do sound really nice hooked up to a SE 6bq5 amp I have. My only complaint is I can't turn them up loud enough.
    I use Ashly mosfet amps most of the time. Low distortion and very nice sound.

    I should probably pick one pair of speakers to invest time and money into. I have the A7 setup, some 817a cabs with JBL 2360 horns, and some smaller DIY 414b based speakers in the living room. I would like to pick one pair and use really good parts to try to get the most out of them. I think playing around with different caps is a good way to start.

    That is a good buy on the K75-10
    -----------------------------------------

    From what you write, I would suggest buy NO MORE speakers - and learn to optimize what you ( and I ) have - your VOTTs.

    I run a Type 45 amp, SE, which is 1.5 Watts, and it is MORE than loud enough in my room.

    So, I would GUESS you are using high-loss wiring methods between the amp and the driver's in your A7. As a result, you lose the power, jump-factor, and FUN factor, with less-than-superbly-thought-out wiring.

    The use of OPTIMIZED wiring is what allows us to easily use 3 Watt or less amps, instead of a UGLY sounding 60 Watt tube and solid state amps !!

    A buddy of mine did precisely this, on his JBL Paragon, spent $10K on Ensemble wire, amp-to-speaker voice coils, and went from needing 60 Watts to using under 3 Watts. This applies superbly to high efficiency speakers, ALTEC, JBL, etc. Good news, 'no need to spend $10 K in 2016 !!!!!!

    To hear A7s best, you first need to :

    (a) optimize amp-to-speaker wiring

    (b) optimize wiring and losses in the crossover

    (c) optimize wiring between the crossover and the driver's voice coils.


    You can't take anything for granted, its ALL hearable with ALTECS, and there is ROOM for improvement.

    A Push Pull 6BQ5 amp should be more than enough power ... IF all else is optimized.

    Contact me privately and we can discuss this in depth.

    Jeff Medwin

  5. #15
    Hostboard Member Nickd's Avatar
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    Re: Using Higher Voltage Rated Film Caps in ALTEC Crossovers

    Jeff,
    I installed the jupiter 2.2uf flat stacked as an upgrade to a modified open back P Audio coax (for the tweeter) in a well engineered 2nd order highs pass circuit replacing a Sonicap Gen 1 cap.

    Now I am a fan of Sonicap's and think they are an excellent value and sound better than quite a few caps that cost more. The Platinum caps make great bypass caps.

    That said, the Jupiter cap was on a another level. Huge air up top and buttery smooth mids. Smooth mids with absolute transparency are what really sets them apart.

    The P Audio drivers are very good (no longer made) but not as high in resolution as the Altec drivers. But efficient 97db even in open baffle. You hear everything up stream.

    I bought my M-19's with a fresh set of high end Jantzen caps solidered in place. The gent I bought them from was a true fan of the good stuff.

    If I were starting from scratch (and had the budget) I would have bought the Jupiters no question.
    I wish the Altec team could have engineered in smaller values though. Those 18uf & 21uf caps are a small fortune if you go state of the art.
    Nick

  6. #16
    Senior Hostboard Member LowOhms's Avatar
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    Re: Using Higher Voltage Rated Film Caps in ALTEC Crossovers

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickd View Post
    Jeff,
    I installed the jupiter 2.2uf flat stacked as an upgrade to a modified open back P Audio coax (for the tweeter) in a well engineered 2nd order highs pass circuit replacing a Sonicap Gen 1 cap.

    Now I am a fan of Sonicap's and think they are an excellent value and sound better than quite a few caps that cost more. The Platinum caps make great bypass caps.

    That said, the Jupiter cap was on a another level. Huge air up top and buttery smooth mids. Smooth mids with absolute transparency are what really sets them apart.

    The P Audio drivers are very good (no longer made) but not as high in resolution as the Altec drivers. But efficient 97db even in open baffle. You hear everything up stream.

    I bought my M-19's with a fresh set of high end Jantzen caps solidered in place. The gent I bought them from was a true fan of the good stuff.

    If I were starting from scratch (and had the budget) I would have bought the Jupiters no question.
    I wish the Altec team could have engineered in smaller values though. Those 18uf & 21uf caps are a small fortune if you go state of the art.
    Nick
    Nick,

    VERY NICE post and reply. So its about 600-800 dollars to get four "single" crossover caps in stereo - that YOU like . That may be cheap, if you consider failed alternatives that don't truly " get it " !!

    THANK YOU, for your contribution.

    So far, looks like no one is talking too much about MULTIPLE film bypass caps.

    Am I all "alone" with this in ALTEC - land ??? Maybe.

    Should I send you some K75-10s in 0.68 to listen to??

    I was up till 11 PM last night re-doing my crossovers, wiring and terminal strips, so I can more easily TRY various bypass cap substitutions. Have a few more nights of work on them.

    I've gone to DOUBLE 14 AWG M22759/112 -14 Mil spec wire to maintain transfer efficiency INTERNALLY in the crossover. "An inch of bad wire can ruin the musical experience !! " - R.W. Fulton 1925-1988.

    Jeff Medwin

  7. #17
    Hostboard Member Nickd's Avatar
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    Re: Using Higher Voltage Rated Film Caps in ALTEC Crossovers

    Lansing4412,

    I think you might be missing the point of the thread. Some of us change gear i.e. Amps, phono carts, cable, speakers, and yes bypass caps, because we enjoy it.

    I have owned almost every type of amp made (except OTL). Liked different things about all,of them.

    Sure bi-amped Speakers are cool, but they are just one of many ways to build and enjoy a system. I built a tri-amped pair of Don Keel CBT arrays with 15" subs a few of years ago. Mind blowing soundstage, Dynamics to die for. Loved them for a while and then sold them (at a loss) to someone else who loves them now.

    For those who have the means, no harm buying expensive parts. The tech invented by company's often makes its way to the mass market by demand. Note that the Denon 103R has "six nines" copper wire in its coils.

    That was NASA stuff a few years back. Dennon engineers realized that it sounds better and they can sell more MC cartridges if they brag about using it. Now we can buy those for $250. on the net.

    For guys like me, that's cool! I can spare 200 bucks and I need and want a great phono cartridge.

    We enjoy a hobby, which for some finding the biggest bargain is part of the fun. For others it's pride in the build. For some it's having "the very best" at any cost.

    As long as people care for themselves and those for whom they are responsible, God bless em. They keep the economy growing and create wealth through products built and traded.

    Guys who wind capacitors and solder on leads have mortgages too. I have dined with a few, none were wealthy by any means. The high-end market is not as large or wealthy as you may have been lead to believe.

  8. #18
    Senior Hostboard Member mah's Avatar
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    Re: Using Higher Voltage Rated Film Caps in ALTEC Crossovers

    Strange reply to Lansing4412 re the AES video, Nick.
    Last edited by mah; July 13th, 2016 at 06:55 AM.
    Opinion is only as valid as its verifiable supporting evidence.

  9. #19
    Senior Hostboard Member Elitopus1's Avatar
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    Re: Using Higher Voltage Rated Film Caps in ALTEC Crossovers

    Quote Originally Posted by LowOhms View Post
    Cool post. In post #2 of this thread, you suggest This :



    "If you want to hear something fun, try some of the Jupiter flat stacked copper and wax caps. Bit of "magic" in those indeed."



    I have since looked up those Jupiter caps, and the do get good comments on Klipsch Forum, etc.

    Have YOU tried them? What could you share with us on your LISTENING experiences with them. ??

    For me, ( or any one else to "try" them ) takes a $600 to $800 dollar entry fee, for four cap positions in our ALTEC crossovers. What can you tell us you hear with them??

    TIA,

    Jeff

    - - - Updated - - -



    -----------------------------------------

    From what you write, I would suggest buy NO MORE speakers - and learn to optimize what you ( and I ) have - your VOTTs.

    I run a Type 45 amp, SE, which is 1.5 Watts, and it is MORE than loud enough in my room.

    So, I would GUESS you are using high-loss wiring methods between the amp and the driver's in your A7. As a result, you lose the power, jump-factor, and FUN factor, with less-than-superbly-thought-out wiring.

    The use of OPTIMIZED wiring is what allows us to easily use 3 Watt or less amps, instead of a UGLY sounding 60 Watt tube and solid state amps !!

    A buddy of mine did precisely this, on his JBL Paragon, spent $10K on Ensemble wire, amp-to-speaker voice coils, and went from needing 60 Watts to using under 3 Watts. This applies superbly to high efficiency speakers, ALTEC, JBL, etc. Good news, 'no need to spend $10 K in 2016 !!!!!!

    To hear A7s best, you first need to :

    (a) optimize amp-to-speaker wiring

    (b) optimize wiring and losses in the crossover

    (c) optimize wiring between the crossover and the driver's voice coils.


    You can't take anything for granted, its ALL hearable with ALTECS, and there is ROOM for improvement.

    A Push Pull 6BQ5 amp should be more than enough power ... IF all else is optimized.

    Contact me privately and we can discuss this in depth.

    Jeff Medwin
    Jeff- PM sent

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