OT: SET amps for Altec compression drivers

[xinu]

I started this thread to inquire if there are benefits of using single ended amps coupled to Altec HF compression drivers.

After the first couple of positive and on topic posts, this thread had now gone to hell thanks to one poster's esoteric views and condescending comments to others that don't subscribe to the dogma.

Too bad since this could have been very informative for me and others.

As far as I'm concerned this tread is dead to me

Greg

[Elitopus1]

I started this thread to inquire if there are benefits of using single ended amps coupled to Altec HF compression drivers.

After the first couple of positive and on topic posts, this thread had now gone to hell thanks to one poster's esoteric views and condescending comments to others that don't subscribe to the dogma.

Too bad since this could have been very informative for me and others.

As far as I'm concerned this tread is dead to me

Greg

I apologize for my part in this. The threads here didn't used to get so off track like this. Recently things have been different. Personally I would rather talk about our Altec speakers and how we use them than to bicker over our other audio gear.

I hope you find the answer to this thread or maybe just try out some different amps and see how it sounds.

I ran my A7's off a 5wpc SE EL84 amp for a while. They sounded great but there wasn't enough bass or overall volume for me (I like concert levels). Biamping with only the HF on the tube amp would allow you to have the sweetness of a tube amp with the balls of an SS amp

[BillWojo]

I apologies to for running this off the rails. Your original post was actually of interest to me.
A very cheap way to get into a SE amp as was alluded to earlier is a DIY build. If you go to the tube subforum on AK there is a build thread (search DG-SE1) by a well known tube guy (Dave Gillespie) that details how to take a EL84 single ended stereo amp used in thousands of Magnavox consoles and turn it into a good performing little amp for not much money.
Many folks on that forum have followed through on his build and have been delighted. The EL84 tube is inexpensive and has a very nice sound as well. A Magnavox EL84 PP based amp is what turned me onto tube amps several years ago. It was a model 9302, I still have it, bone stock. Someday I intend on following through on DG's build thread for that amp as well.
I am trying to find some time to visit board member Petro, he has a very nice 2A3 SE amp running a set of Altecs. Should be interesting to hear the sonic signature of that amp as well. Lots of different flavors out there in the tube world.
One of the things I like about my Dennis Had SE amp is the ability to run a variety of output tubes, from 6V6 to KT120's, adjusting voltage by using different rectifier tubes. There is a huge following on these amps with a lot of info.
I used to be a big amp guy but have been intrigued by the allure of low powered amps and efficient speakers. It's a very nice road to go down and I have fallen in love with the sound quality of my Altec's.
I still have my Carver Platinum ribbon speakers and my Carver Silver Seven T mono blocks (700W per amp) for a SS system but I find something about my tubed Altec system that just grabs me.

BillWojo

[xinu]

Thanks guys for getting this back on track.

I'll check out the AK DG-SE1 build threads. Looks to be fairly popular.

I mentioned reasonably priced SE amps. My spend limit would be $1K to either build or buy.

Probably like others here, I like to enjoy the music without facing the music.

[LowOhms]

Thanks guys for getting this back on track.

I'll check out the AK DG-SE1 build threads. Looks to be fairly popular.

I mentioned reasonably priced SE amps. My spend limit would be $1K to either build or buy.

Probably like others here, I like to enjoy the music without facing the music.

Hey,

I GAVE you the best, fully correct answer, and you ignored it and mocked me, tongue-in-cheek.

Your speaker,as we determined, early-on, is 91 dB /1 Watt/1 meter, so NO SET amp you can afford, is any good to use to power it, full range.

The basic fallacy of bi-amping, if people have not yet figured it out, is, you have ( a) added an extra active stage, to generate the biamping signals for the two amps and (b) the two amps need to be IDENTICAL, top and bottom, so as to have a single signature, and a single time-constant, through the system.

Of course, if you have a " mid-fi ALTEC system" , as many on a budget, and many on this Forum do, neither of the two above facts will be of concern, because your inexpensive gear, and your poor execution ( lack of great wiring, etc ) will HIDE these problems.

But notice, the VERY BEST ALTEC implementations, as I have discussed herein, is always with a passive crossover, and a SINGLE mono SET amp running the whole speaker, with proper attention to system wiring.

My original advice stands. Get a 604 or VOTT, wire it properly, and power it with a SET amp.

It would be possible to do a shared supply SE amp, all triode, in your $1 K budget, especially if I donated some of my spare parts to your cause.

98 dB, or more, however, is the ticket, for a optimum tube amp employment. Nothing will change this. There IS only ONE best way.

Interesting article :

Martin Armstrong Warns "We Are Getting Generationally Dumber!" | Zero Hedge


Have a great day.


Jeff Medwin

[Phil-G]

Jeff, please just stop.
make your points, leave it at that and move on.
your observations are not a problem, the repetition is.

[GM]

1,540 Amperes of current[/B], peak / instantaneous,

and ALSO,

(b) measures at 1.4 milli Ohms of ESR, at 100 KHZ

Would it be advantageous if I employed said capacitor throughout a good amplifier's power supply, and also in the ALTEC speaker's crossover filters, to reproduce music's transient - nature more faithfully ??


What kind sir, would you think?????

Well, I'm neither an amp nor capacitor designer, but IIRC these specs imply a relatively massive capacitive reactance, requiring high resistance damping, ergo unacceptable for high sound quality [SQ] crossovers IMO/IME, though if created by making a capacitor 'bank' from a lot of small value caps as I've periodically recommended [ditto resistor 'grids'], then works for me, though of course they can't be just any caps and here's where our 'we all hear the same, yet not so much' tiebreaker rears its 'ugly head', rendering any dogmatic 'must haves'/'must dos' to get the most out of one's audio system without some physics to back it up is strictly opinion/hearsay.

Doesn't mean it's not the way to go for the majority, but it's for the individual to decide.

GM

[LowOhms]

Well, I'm neither an amp nor capacitor designer, but IIRC these specs imply a relatively massive capacitive reactance, requiring high resistance damping, ergo unacceptable for high sound quality [SQ] crossovers IMO/IME, though if created by making a capacitor 'bank' from a lot of small value caps as I've periodically recommended [ditto resistor 'grids'], then works for me, though of course they can't be just any caps and here's where our 'we all hear the same, yet not so much' tiebreaker rears its 'ugly head', rendering any dogmatic 'must haves'/'must dos' to get the most out of one's audio system without some physics to back it up is strictly opinion/hearsay.

Doesn't mean it's not the way to go for the majority, but it's for the individual to decide.

GM

GM,

Thanks for responding. You have always been my favorite poser up here. 'Do a lovely job.

There are newer cap technologies, a WIMA DC LINK film cap, industrially priced, is one that comes to mind. This original cap that I refered specs to, is also one of these newer types of technology devices, that only a few people in audio have even tried.

I was fortunate, to figure-out to experiment with it in May 2016, not only on my VOTT's crossover, ( as part of every bypass bundle ), but throughout my SET Type 45 amp's power supply filter .... C1 and C2 to the Finals.

So, about two months after installing it practically "everywhere" in my system, I experimentally " lifted " the ground connection of one new bypass cap, in the amp's C1 position only, ( of a L1/C1/L2/C2 power supply filter, feeding the Type 45 Finals ).

Holy smokes, I could not believe how terrible my VOTTs then sounded, all the dynamic contrasting, and transient ability I had been hearing for two months, went away in a micro-second, and the system sounded VERY ordinary, unengaging, boring to me. I was stunned, so I hooked it back up as originally implemented, and PONDERED what it all meant.

In December 2016, a good audio listener-friend, calls and tells me, he had "copied" my experimental cap choice, from photos he had seen of my gear, unknown to me. He RAVED about the cap, said " it bowled him over". He described it as - " it gets the initial LEADING EDGE of the transient, far far better than ANY other choice he had heard".

I agreed 100% with his precise description GM, and I was pretty darn happy, after listening and wondering from May to December, what was going on. I had this fellow's, ( a good listener IMHO ), second independent confirmation in December. He simply RAVED on and on..

At that time, all I knew of was two specs : about 1.4 milli Ohm at 100 KHZ, and over 60 Amperes of current RMS capability. The RMS current was nice, but not exceptional. The under 1.4 milli Ohms was exceptional, in my opinion.

In January, 2017, I went on-line to learn more. This is an industrial part, and I was hoping to find documentation / data sheets, of some type.

Well, from a VERY reliable source, I found a full data sheet, and determined that what was being used ( throughout - amp through the crossover ), was a unit rated at over 1500 Amperes,....... obviously, this was an "instantaneous PEAK" rating !! Music IS peaks, pulses, not sinusoidal, but ODD waves !!

So, GM, this explained to my satisfaction, why my ALTEC VOTT's can do so well - the "leading edge" of a piano, Sir Alfred Brendel, Beethoven, to be precise, far far better than I could ever hope for.

It also now made TOTAL sense in my mind, why that the music DIED when I took the bypass cap off of C1 in my filter. You have heard me say " In the end, we all listen to a modulated filter supply ".

Realize, if I had ONLY placed these film bypass caps in my VOTT crossover, ( and not through the entire chain starting with that Type 45 SET ), I would have never fully experienced the VOTT's performance, which I was hearing from 5-2016 to 1-2017.

To further substantiate these listening results, just this week, I have about five of my USA and Italian audio friends, ordering these caps, and I will be mentoring / helping them in applying it in their amps, and crossovers. When I hear back from them, get more confirmations, I will gladly share the verified results, with ALTEC-using people who may have a similar interest as mine.

For right now, I am likely the only one, who has heard this on VOTTS, throughout a system - amp through speaker crossovers.

WE will soon learn more, give me 60 days or so. Its really cool to be involved with this. The two new SET 2A3 monoblocks, to be built in February, will employ these bypasses in not just two, but in all three "C" Positions, in other words, to my Input Stage also. That will be : C1-C2-C3, as in : L1/C1/L2/C2/R1/C3. Fun to contemplate what the input / driver tube stage - may then do. Exciting times. Sir Alfred on his piano is gonna rock-out! !

Thank you GM, for all you do !!


Jeff Medwin

[KBergsson]

Hi I mostly use kit 300B SE monoblocks with my VOTTs (1505 horn). The 300b kits are DIY HifiSupply LD19 which are built on a modified WE91 circuit. Im quite happy with the result using Werner Jagusch autoformer Crossovers.

I also have Altec 604-8Gs in DIY 620 Cabs. Im using Werner Jagusch autoformer crossovers for the 604s as well. For the 604s I prefer the added control my PP Quicksilver KT88 and Mid Mono (6l6, EL34) monoblocks provide. I will also use Hypex Ncore 400 monoblocks on the 604s when using them for movies.

The VOTTs will also benefit from the more power and control of the Quicksilver PP amps when used for movies. The Hypex Ncore 400 are however not a good match with the VOTTs with my current passive Slagle autoformer pre and in my near field listening position. That may change if I assemble an active Valve pre. I have been thinking of the Trancendent sound 300B preamp.

I would like to try a good 20-50w class A transistor amp at some point with my Altecs. For eksample one of the First watt/Nelson pass designs.