Any recommendations internal speaker wire?

[kipduff]

Hi Kip,

Here is what I find works best, crossover to drivers - and especially with lower powered tube amps:

From the Crossover to the high frequency compression drivers, use a 57 1/8th inch run of M22759/11 16 , ( 16 AWG, so you don't lose the highs ) one run for each polarity, do not twist the two wires.

For the crossover to the Woofer, use TWO runs of 12 AWG for EACH polarity. That would be m22759/11 12 and you can lightly twist the two wires in each polarity, but NOT the two polarities together. Again, use 57 1/8th inch length intervals.

I also find the ALTECs sound best when the press to fit connectors, stock on the drivers, are bypassed completely ( ie - not used ). I solder the 57 1/8th inch long 16 AWG m22759/11 16 directly to the tabs on the diaphragm ( did this just last night to a pair of 802Ds) . Place a clean rag OVER the diaphragm when soldering, to avoid splatters onto the diaphragm. I prefer Wonder Solder. In and out QUICK with a HOT gun.

On the woofer, I also prefer to bypass the crummy press-to-fit connectors, temporarily placing a rag over the backside of the cone when soldering, and solder the two 12 AWG Mil Spec wires DIRECTLY to the inner ALTEC stock terminal, that holds the lead-in wire to the voice coil. Loop each double 12 woofer wire, off the terminals and Double Tie Wrap each double 12 AWG run to the ALTEC woofer 's frame, to avoid TUG damage. Double 12 to each polarity equals about 9 AWG effective.

To my ears, under hard drive, direct soldering and the wiring, precisely as described, sounds nicer - more dynamic, is lower in distortion, than using a stock NON soldered press to-fit-connections and crummy wire. Really, IMHO, no comparison between the two methods, if you seek ultimate ALTEC performance.

Oh, from amp to speaker, I use two 57 1/8th inch lengths ( 114 1/4 inch runs ) of TRIPLE m22759/11 12 . I prefer to keep the two speaker wire polarities separate, no light twisting, they do not even touch each other. If you have a long distance between amp and speakers, the low powered tube amp will under-perform with long speaker wires. In that case, use a long interconnect, and short speaker wire ( eg: a single 57 1/8th inch run - amp to speaker , DOUBLE 12 AWG ).... and have the amps placed right near the speaker.

For anyone who posts that what I propose ( and do !! ) is " unnecessary ", I can GUARANTEE you Kip, they haven't tried it nor heard it, nor will they have the mindset to follow this precisely as was described. I LOVE this wiring, biggest ( wiring ) performance bang for the buck !! No deviations. Wonder Solder. If you execute this, as described, PLEASE share with us all your listening experience and impressions. Have fun, I do.


Low Ohms..... Jeff Medwin

( 825s, 515Bs, 802Ds 400 pounds of mass loading per enclosure, DIY crossover, Type 46 or JJ 2A3-40 DIY Direct-Coupled single-ended tube amps )

PS: For people who may be unaware, 57 1/8 th inches, and multiples and divisors thereof, is a length developed by Audio Engineer Robert W. Fulton, in the 1970s, which he applied to all his wiring.

Fulton Musical Industries - Biography

Jeff:

Though I have no technical background to back this up, at this point, I am staying with approx 16" (and less) runs of 16 and/or 18 AWG wire (possibly 14 on woof). My open baffle project here is probably going to be a temporary setup- who knows? However, I feel the info I've received on this thread is important enough for me to convert to PDF and store in my Altec/GPA folder on my computer so I won't have trouble finding it later. It will take me a while to digest this info! Thanks, Kip.............

[kipduff]

I use regular copper "lamp cord" 12 awg wire in and between all my speakers. I am very happy with it.

For some fancier wire, there is some mil-spec stuff that is cheap and also excellent sounding. M22759-11 is the spec. Its silver coated copper. A few users here will vouch for it.

I find that speaker wire it something you just have to try a bunch and choose which you like the best. Some people are very serious about it. There's many a speaker wire thread at Audiokarma that gets locked.

Btw, sounds like a cool project you have going. Post some pics when you get it all together.

Elitopus:

Educated myself on this wire and discovered that it's available at Apex Jr. here in Los Angeles area. On my way home from work yesterday, I headed to Torrance and bought a small stock of 14, 16, and 18 AWG M22759/11 wire from Steve. Some of it may be MW16878/4 type E spec- Steve claims is equivalent. As far as trying different wires, since it's possible that they may need break in (?), not sure I have the patience for that (maybe after I retire and have more fee time!). Thanks!

[kipduff]

Kip,

I listened to a lot of different types of wire over the years on Altec compression drivers, but always heard low-level white noise in the horn output regardless of the type of wire used. That changed forever when I tried some long-crystal continuous cast copper from Vampire and instead heard total background silence, even with my ear stuck inside the horn's mouth! I've used it for both cabling and hookup wire ever since. I used to buy it in bulk directly from the distributor when I was building speakers, so it may only be available now directly in small quantities from retail re-sellers. A quick search of the web shows that Ohno style long-crystal copper wire is still available from other vendors. Well worth it if you like dead silent backgrounds from your horns and a very transparent sounding wire overall.

Jeff

Jeff:

Thanks for your response! Eventually, thru an AudioGon forum, I found OCC (Ohno Continuous Cast) wire:

NEOTECH - Solid Core Copper, *PTFE Jacket
(99.9999% UP-OCC Mono-Crystal design)

at Parts Connexion in many gauges for $3(18ga), $4(16ga), and $6(14ga). (Parts Connexion has 5 pages of OCC wire!) Also, Chris venHaus has OCC with some proprietary insulation- but not in many gauges.

For now, I am going to wire up this Altec 604 open baffle project with M22759/11 wire I got from Apex Jr. here in LA yesterday. I have 14 thru 18 AWG. I plan to use OCC wire in the future, and am curious what your recommendation is as to gauge for these short (around 16" and less) post-to-Xover-to-drivers runs with the M22759/11 and/or OCC? If/when I re-do the wiring with OCC, I plan to use solid core if appropriate.

Also, as to amp-to-speaker wires- from your post, I gather you like the OCC for this application as well. I currently am running Psvane 300B tubes in BottleHead Paramount monoblocs thru some 8' long Audio Research Corp expensive looking cables I got with an amp I bought a long time ago. I don't know much about these ARC cables- I plan to research what model/gauge/price/design they are if the info is out there. I would like to try the OCC for this application if appropriate. My amps are near the speakers, so I could go as low as 4' (or the 57.125' length Low Ohms recommended). As I consider building some new OCC speaker wires, I'm very curious to know what your recommendations are on gauge, configuration, solid vs. stranded? Now that I think of it, solid core might no be so good because of termination difficulties.

Much thanks, Kip...........

[Elitopus1]

I know in the xover I built of Jeff's design, he recommended 18 awg wire for within the xover. I took that to mean 18 awg or larger, but maybe he can clarify that.

[kipduff]

Guys:

So much thanks for replies. I have replied to individuals, but for some reason, not showing up on this thread yet. My most recent response was to Jeff Markwart- and that reply HAS show up (!?). I will continue later- NOW OFF TO GET THE PLYWOOD!- may even get Baltic Birch.

- - - Updated - - -

I use regular copper "lamp cord" 12 awg wire in and between all my speakers. I am very happy with it.

For some fancier wire, there is some mil-spec stuff that is cheap and also excellent sounding. M22759-11 is the spec. Its silver coated copper. A few users here will vouch for it.

I find that speaker wire it something you just have to try a bunch and choose which you like the best. Some people are very serious about it. There's many a speaker wire thread at Audiokarma that gets locked.

Btw, sounds like a cool project you have going. Post some pics when you get it all together.

Good! For now picked up some M22759/11 in 14, 16, and 18 AWG yesterday at Apex Jr.!

[LowOhms]

I know in the xover I built of Jeff's design, he recommended 18 awg wire for within the xover. I took that to mean 18 awg or larger, but maybe he can clarify that.

Thanks. As of NOW :

TWEETER :

I presently use 16 AWG to ALL tweeter - associated crossover circuits, and from the crossover to my 802Ds, 57 1/8 th inches long, 16 AWG to retain the highs that a larger AWG, like 12 or 14 AWG, will lose.

GROUND :

I tend to use triple 12 AWG for the crossover's main ground run, ( just like my 114 1/4 inch amp-to-crossover runs are three 12s for each polarity.)

WOOFER :

On my crossover's woofer circuitry, the 12 dB./ octave L/C wiring, I am presently using double 14 AWG ( equals 11 AWG ) From the crossover to each polarity of ALTEC 515B woofer, it is always double 12s ( 9 AWG ), at 57 1/8th inches.

M22759/11 in Fulton lengths, multiples or divisors, whenever possible.


CAPACITORS :

Since 4-2016, I have experimentally employed way-way-cool 1,500 Ampere instantaneous peak rated crossover caps, both for the woofer ( 515B ) and tweeter ( 802D ) sections. They are part of a bypass bundle of films, used in each C location.

In 2017 there are modern film caps available, that far exceed anything we have had in the past !! I am into " maximum dynamic contrasting " with my A7 system, and these newer capacitor technologies " deliver the goodies " with ALTEC drivers, make it more life-like. NO, I am not using common " audiophile " caps, but rather, industrial types. No Duelands needed ....at all. LOL.


AMPS :

Read this, just posted today, fabulously good.

RE: Why is DC crazy? - tube wrangler - SET Asylum

That is about it, for now. Having FUN testing my own new 46 direct coupled amp. I designed and built it for a friend's new ALTEC Valencias.



Low Ohms.......Jeff Medwin

[mah]

I thought Elitopus1 was referring to a Jeff Markwart crossover.

[LowOhms]

I thought Elitopus1 was referring to a Jeff Markwart crossover.

You are correct.

Elitopus1 and I have, one-on-one, discussed crossovers and wiring before, and when he mentioned Jeff, I originally thought he was referring to our private conversations .

I wrote to Elitopus1, private email, a couple hours ago, after I realized it was to the " other " Jeff M, and explained to him I'd like to leave my post totally intact, since it so clearly and completely covers my 2017 ALTEC speaker implementation. There will be certain people who might want to employ this, wiring and amp wise, and so, its all fairly well spelled out in this thread, in those two long posts I authored.


Thanks, regards.

Low Ohms.....Jeff Medwin

[Steve Schell]

I will only gently enter this thread long enough to suggest that audio explorers might want to try small gauge magnet wire as speaker cable. I run 15' lengths of drill twisted #26 gauge and have for years. This is principally for high sensitivity transducers. Lansing and Hilliard recommended the matching of input and output impedances in 1945 when they introduced the Voice of the Theatre systems. Their crossover impedance was 12 ohms; It is hard to imagine the power amplifier that would have had such a high output impedance. Anyway, injecting another ohm or two in the speaker wire seems to do no harm and might actually do some good. The clarity and immediacy of the sound is hard to beat. I used to suggest online that with careful shopping the intrepid audiophile might keep his speaker cable costs under $5 per mile!

[mah]

Steve, I am interested in the document you referenced. If you have a copy would you mind posting it?

Another paper I would like to see is Dividing Networks For Loudspeaker Systems by Hilliard and Kimball if anybody has it.






- - - Updated - - -

Jeff Medwin,

WTH did your link to Dennis Faker's post have to do with the topic? It seems like personal 'guru' promotion to me. IMHO, of course.


***** This comment, following the reply to Steve, was made quite some time later and was intended to be a separate post. Somehow the two posts were merged. Hostboard has many current problems.