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Thread: my A7s are up and running- and 416a magnet questions

  1. #21
    Hostboard Member kipduff's Avatar
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    Re: my A7s are up and running- and 416a magnet questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitopus1 View Post
    I just finished reading the long thread on AK about the TD15M builds. Unfortunately, all the pics are gone. I started a new thread about AE users and their setups.

    I was also curious about GPA woofer prices, since the 416B were so reasonable. I asked Bill about his 515C drivers, and he came back with a price of 550$ each. Still not bad when you look at how much original 515C cost, and the benefits of having woofers with all new parts.
    Well this thread has led us/me to the real question. Along the path of trying to get these going in an acceptable fashion, I asked myself: why not pop the extra bucks and get the GPA 515-16C (that's the Alnico/Classic, right?)? That led to issue: is it a good fit with the current horn setup I have? But the real question for me is: what's the best sounding driver (and eventually, driver set) for an 828?- and that I should start on the path of discovering that. I worry that the answer is a "vintage". I am commited to owning sooner or later an optimum A7 set. But what are my target components? Other than some indications of hefty prices on vintage 515 variants, there's not too much of a financial barrier to a commited bachelor with building and repair skills- and some credit cards that are still on their feet. As far as the cabinet goes, to me the answer at this point is relatively clear: 828 in plywood. The drivers? That's where gets hairy- mostly in the woofer considerations. I'm very impressed with these horns at this point just the way they are. Some talk of how "back in the day" when the company was in it's prime, there was a bit of magic that's hard to reproduce now. I would love some feed back from anyone who has experience with the GPA 416B or GPA 515C Alnicos. GPA will be putting my 416-16B set together- I don't think he would mind if I switched the order up to the 515-16Cs.

    You guys are a lot further down this path than I am. So, if you have a moment: for you guys that think you have some woofers you feel are optimum- or close to optimum, what are they?

    For those who are working towards getting some woofers you feel would be optimum, what is your target?

    Thanks, Kip.......

    BTW, the horns are sounding so good with the Russiam MBG PIOs in the XOs, I put some FT-3 teflon 0.1uF 630V Russian coupling caps in my 300B monoblock amps. Not even broken in, they were a huge improvement- and really starting to romp now. Never knew how much of a difference these could make. Why did I wait so long to try this? Much thanks to forums for these tips........

  2. #22
    Senior Hostboard Member Elitopus1's Avatar
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    Re: my A7s are up and running- and 416a magnet questions

    Obviously there are some trade offs with either the 416 or 515 in a 828 cab. IMO, the 416 matches better with a small format driver, and the 515 with a large format driver. Of course this is how Altec did it (with a few exceptions including the 604).

    I have run my 828 cabs with small format drivers, and a varity of horns and woofers. My favorite setup was a 416-8A woofer and a 802D HF driver on an Emilar EH800 horn. All crossed at 800hz.

    Recently I bought some multicell horns (805B), and now I don't think I can go back to a 1? driver on my 828 setup. The mids are just so sweet with the 288 driver.

    So now I am looking for some 515 to finish the A5 project. I have some JBL 2242 subs to fill out the bottom end for the 515.

    My personal opinion, is if you are going to stay with a 1? HF driver, the 416B (the best 416 IMO), is a good way to go.

    I?m sure others will chime in with their experiences also

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    Senior Hostboard Member bowtie427ss's Avatar
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    Re: my A7s are up and running- and 416a magnet questions

    I'm not sure there is a "best", if you're willing to tweak and tinker you can make a 421 sound damn good in an 828.

    Altec built plenty of small VOT's using 515 and small format on top. The 515's extra couple db of sensitivity over the 416 is barely audible, you'll still have to pad 10db out of any large format horn/driver combo to balance the system. The biggest disparity with running small format over 515 is power handling of the HF section, hardly a matter of concern for those running single digit output power.

    515 has a significantly more powerful motor compared to 416. In the same alignment the 515 will have less LFE, and of course it's midrange trumps the 416's which is a feat not many woofers can pull off.

    There will be just as many rewards from optimizing the 828 precisely for whichever woofer you settle on as there will be in choosing the "perfect" woofer. Different woofers will require different tunings to massage the last bits of goodness out of them.

    Further, the base 828 design has lots of room for improvement in terms of bracing, damping, mass loading, internal volume reduction, etc..

    Small format VOT is a fun and exciting road to travel, there are many interesting stops along the way with something of keen interest for just about everybody. There are so many variations and possible combinations that one can enjoy the journey for a long time without boredom or repetition.

    My personal thoughts on the 416.................... perhaps the best woofer ever made in a few regards. It is versatile, and can be at home in a wide variety of alignments. It can be a horn driver as well as a subwoofer. It can handle midrange duty up to 1200hz and beyond and still retain a respectable polar response. It has the sensitivity, and smooth impedance curve to allow for minimally reactive, and resistive passive crossover networks which are very appealing to the low power crowd. Most of all they are not scarce, they are serviceable, and in most cases they are pretty affordable. Although, my jury is still way out there at 750 for a new pair versus patience and thrift which can put a freshly rebuilt pair in your hands for a little more than half that. The rebuilt pair are correct Altec kit for a proper restoration, whereas the GPA is aftermarket as much as some will refuse to accept that fact.
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    Senior Hostboard Member Elitopus1's Avatar
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    Re: my A7s are up and running- and 416a magnet questions

    I would hope the GPA 416B uses the same cone kit that GPA uses in their normal recones right? I haven't been around a pair of their new woofers to comment.

    Just curious what 2-way systems Altec ran the 515 and a 1? driver together (besides the 604). I could think of a few 3-way systems, but not 2-way. Help me be more edjamacated for next time

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    Senior Hostboard Member bowtie427ss's Avatar
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    Re: my A7s are up and running- and 416a magnet questions

    I would hope the GPA 416B uses the same cone kit that GPA uses in their normal recones right?
    I would certainly hope.

    But, that cone isn't the same cone originally used in Altec built 416B, and it doesn't sound the same.

    Just curious what 2-way systems Altec ran the 515 and a 1? driver together
    Most versions of A7 mid 80's and after(when they gave in to the fact that the 416C is kind of a turd compared to the prior versions), A7-8G, A7/MR994, they sold a buttload of those.
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    Senior Hostboard Member Elitopus1's Avatar
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    Re: my A7s are up and running- and 416a magnet questions

    Ah yes I forgot about the Mantaray versions. I was thinking about only metal horns

  7. #27
    Senior Hostboard Member bowtie427ss's Avatar
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    Re: my A7s are up and running- and 416a magnet questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Elitopus1 View Post
    Ah yes I forgot about the Mantaray versions. I was thinking about only metal horns
    The A7/MR994 is a really good sounding speaker system before any modifications.

    Also important to note, the GPA 416C had some important revisions and refinements that made it a very good woofer, and much more characteristic of it's alnico predecessors. If Bill has discontinued them, that's sad news.
    Last edited by bowtie427ss; November 12th, 2017 at 12:36 PM.
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  8. #28
    Senior Hostboard Member Elitopus1's Avatar
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    Re: my A7s are up and running- and 416a magnet questions

    The 416-8C is still listed on the GPA website. Maybe they still have a few left.

    Just curiously, what did Altec change with the 416C that GPA fixed? I don't hear much about the 416C compared to the 416A/B

  9. #29
    Hostboard Member kipduff's Avatar
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    Re: my A7s are up and running- and 416a magnet questions

    Quote Originally Posted by bowtie427ss View Post
    I'm not sure there is a "best", if you're willing to tweak and tinker you can make a 421 sound damn good in an 828.

    Altec built plenty of small VOT's using 515 and small format on top. The 515's extra couple db of sensitivity over the 416 is barely audible, you'll still have to pad 10db out of any large format horn/driver combo to balance the system. The biggest disparity with running small format over 515 is power handling of the HF section, hardly a matter of concern for those running single digit output power.

    515 has a significantly more powerful motor compared to 416. In the same alignment the 515 will have less LFE, and of course it's midrange trumps the 416's which is a feat not many woofers can pull off.

    There will be just as many rewards from optimizing the 828 precisely for whichever woofer you settle on as there will be in choosing the "perfect" woofer. Different woofers will require different tunings to massage the last bits of goodness out of them.

    Further, the base 828 design has lots of room for improvement in terms of bracing, damping, mass loading, internal volume reduction, etc..

    Small format VOT is a fun and exciting road to travel, there are many interesting stops along the way with something of keen interest for just about everybody. There are so many variations and possible combinations that one can enjoy the journey for a long time without boredom or repetition.

    My personal thoughts on the 416.................... perhaps the best woofer ever made in a few regards. It is versatile, and can be at home in a wide variety of alignments. It can be a horn driver as well as a subwoofer. It can handle midrange duty up to 1200hz and beyond and still retain a respectable polar response. It has the sensitivity, and smooth impedance curve to allow for minimally reactive, and resistive passive crossover networks which are very appealing to the low power crowd. Most of all they are not scarce, they are serviceable, and in most cases they are pretty affordable. Although, my jury is still way out there at 750 for a new pair versus patience and thrift which can put a freshly rebuilt pair in your hands for a little more than half that. The rebuilt pair are correct Altec kit for a proper restoration, whereas the GPA is aftermarket as much as some will refuse to accept that fact.
    What would be an example of volume reducing? One way I thought of is to muont the horn in the port- though not many people seem to run them that way.

    In your last paragraph, are you refering to various versions of 416- or a specific one? I will be keeping the 416As in case I arrive at the conclusion that it would be better to refurb them and A/B with the GPAs. Could you elaborate on the issue of 416A refurb vs GPA 416B new? After reading these forums (and my own hunches), the emerging info seems to be that a good running stock 416A- a 416A recone/regauss- and a GPA 416B are varying significantly. Wouldn't a recone use the same cone assy as a new GPA 416-16B? If there might be any downsides/tradeoffs to using the GPA 416s, I curious to know what they are- and ways to consider mitigating. Since I don't have a good running original 416A (does anybody?), I'm at the fork in the road of refurb vs GPA new. If I want, I can use the GPA 416-16B shipping boxes to send the 416As in for refurb- then A/B. A good adventure regardless of final outcome.

    - - - Updated - - -

    [QUOTE=Elitopus1;1976203]
    I have run my 828 cabs with small format drivers, and a varity of horns and woofers. My favorite setup was a 416-8A woofer and a 802D HF driver on an Emilar EH800 horn. All crossed at 800hz.

    There are some Emilar EH800s on eBay right now for $180!

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    Senior Hostboard Member mah's Avatar
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    Re: my A7s are up and running- and 416a magnet questions

    I remember reading that Emilar licensed another company to manufacture and sell these horns. I know of a claim that an identical product is by Showco. Another claim was that a good Chinese knock-off was sold at a cheap price on Ebay. Maybe this will jog someones memory.

    Joe Roberts was a strong proponent of some Emilar horns and detested the 811B.
    Opinion is only as valid as its verifiable supporting evidence.

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