When The Doors Close

[R0cketer]

1) Proof, or as much as can be given, an a situation that has not occured has been given. It's amazing how such and such location doesn't count, or who knows where the information comes from is what you cry, but then you sit and throw the same things out. The facts were on what makes a small school and I think he commented that he didn't have his links anymore, I'm sure if he gets a chance, he will find them. Then of course, you'll not be happy, the numbers will have come from some 'pro-consolidation' group or person and have no bearing. Trust me, you have done made yourself quite clear. I could make a new name, posts information that agreed with your view, and my posts or logic would be viewed as more proof *lol*

2)Who are these pro-consol people? I'm curious, are these like some mysterious men in black group? I don't think I've ever seen anybody say they want to keep the same number, part of the issue is they can't afford to have some classes, with an actual teacher, not your famous video classes or whatever, with such a low ratio. It's not economically or fiscally possible.

3)Cars, buses (gas)--Theory doesn't hold. Yes there would be some who have longer trips, some who could have shorter. There are some buses running that have a handful of students on them. So its possible that you could require less buses to run. You're right though, there could be an increase in gas but I'm guessing that would be offset easily enough by the cost of running 3 schools and power/support/and lets not forget insurance as opposed to 6.

4)Adding the opportunity for classes. There is additional moneys available if the curiculum has certain things offered. For one thing, if you don't have to teach kids via the not-free VESN, you can take the cost there and provide a teacher and not only that, help improve the education received, but wait, I thought you would be willing to pay whatever to help education, but here you are complaining about costs?????

[NotSoSilentBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I would never teach my child the garbage of accepting consolidation or that it is inevitable.

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And that sums up the person quite well.

I think my new motto will be, "If you aren't down for consolidation, then I've got two words for ya!"

[imported_Counts]

OK here are a few links (been busy and unmotivated to do much digging)


the first one is from Journal Information for Educational Evaluation and Policy Analysis suggesting that Optimal school size should be between 600-900 students....SES Students are the only ones who seem to improve in smaller setting BUT this seems to also negatively affect higher end students

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=016...t;2.0.CO%3B2-8

[ QUOTE ]
The study described in this article investigates the relationship between high school size and student learning. We used three [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/getsmile.tmp007816300.gif[/img] of data from NEL and hierarchical linear modeling (HLM) methods to examine how students' achievement growth in two subjects (reading and mathematics) over the high school years is influenced by the size of the high school they attend. Three research questions guided the study: (a) Which size high school is most effective for students' learning?, (b) In which size high school is learning most equitably distributed?, and (c) Are size effects consistent across high schools defined by their social compositions? Results suggest that the ideal high school, defined in terms of effectiveness (i. e., learning), enrolls between 600 and 900 students. In schools smaller than this, students learn less; those in large high schools (especially over 2,100) learn considerably less. Learning is more equitable in very small schools, with equity defined by the relationship between learning and student socioeconomic status (SES). An important finding from the study is that the influence of school size on learning is different in schools that enroll students of varying SES and in schools with differing proportions of minorities. Enrollment size has a stronger effect on learning in schools with lower-SES students and also in schools with high concentrations of minority students. Implications for educational policy are discussed.

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I almost did not add this link since it does not "Define" what a large/small/medium school is the only reference was that the size of grades 200 being low end and 800 high end. so I assume that by small he means 600 student HS (200 students * 3 Grades = 600 HS kids)

BTW they seem to favor Medium sized schools (But do not define what a medium sized school is LOL)

http://econ.claremontmckenna.edu/papers/1999-11.pdf

This link is probably my favorite assuming everyone is still with me here IMHO this paper really captures all sides of the argument quite well and again we are looking at an optimal size of between 600-900 students

[ QUOTE ]
More systematic studies of school size suggest that optimal school size may be larger than such
anecdotal accounts suggest. One seminal review of literature indicated that school expenditures
and optimal size reflect a U-shaped pattern, with the very smallest and very largest schools
showing diseconomies of scale (Fox, 1981), suggesting that moderately sized schools may
operate most efficiently and effectively. More recent studies examining student outcomes and
optimal size also reflect this same pattern. After examining 9,812 sets of records for the same
students across grade levels, Lee and Smith (1997) found a curvilinear relationship between high
school size and achievement. According to their findings, high school achievement rises as
enrollment rises to 600, remains steady up to about 900, and then drops with increasing school
size.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.wcpss.net/evaluation-rese...ize_litrev.pdf




Yes if you read just one report read the 3rd one it is the best of the lot. While I have more links these pretty much sum up my arguments that a consolidated Pound/Wise would not be a "Large" school and that there are studies showing that schools in the 600-900 student range tend to provide a better education for most involved.

Now if you guys can provide me with the links showing me where the consolidated KY schools are under performing the schools that went into making them (i.e Elk Horn was a better school that East Ridge) I would be happy to see it (could be you may change my mind on the subject.

[aphrodite4ever]

[ QUOTE ]
Hope all goes well with your surgery. Keep us posted

BTW-you are meeting the wrong people from Wise-just like I had met the wrong folks from Pound before I met elp6n [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beer1.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ] Thank you! But I didnt have it today, Ive got to reschedule it [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Even more fun stuff huh? Maybe I have met a fair few bad apples from wise. Who knows.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate to yell but THERE IS NO TUITION FOR DUAL ENROLLMENT

[/ QUOTE ]
Now you know better than to yell.
I just called the school board. The class has to be an approved dual-enrollment class and the parents/student are required to pay 20% of the tuition plus supplies (and we all know a single college text book can easily cost $50-90 - most of mine were). Any non-approved dual-enrollment (like something a student wants to take because it will be part of their college transcript) is 100% tuition.
The colleges specify that no financial aid is available for dual-enrollment.

[/ QUOTE ] You are correct, 20% to take college classes. Might be a bargin, no teachers to pay, no building to heat, no ... no anything. If there isn't enough interest next year the county isn't stuck with the bill. The AP classes should not be in high school. When you are talking about 3 students at 3 different county schools, it becomes simple, we don't need that class in the high schools when the colleges in the county will teach it for us. Better education is what the whole story is about, get them into college as soon as possible. Then the class is on the student, learn or get left behind. Many now are held up because someone else doesn't care if they learn or not. I goofed off in school, why put someone who doesn't care in a class they will disrupt?

[Unchained]

505 replies thus far....good thread whether it is agree or disagree. It is good to see something that folks are passionate about.

We will only get one chance to do this right. The kids will end up helping to pay for much of it , as the time that goes by to get the ball rolling again and decide on what and how, and get the funding. Many of them will be in the workforce by the time the project is completed. I hope we can look at all the angles and be fair.

[imported_yomama]

[/ QUOTE ] You are correct, 20% to take college classes. Might be a bargin, no teachers to pay, no building to heat, no ... no anything. If there isn't enough interest next year the county isn't stuck with the bill. The AP classes should not be in high school. When you are talking about 3 students at 3 different county schools, it becomes simple, we don't need that class in the high schools when the colleges in the county will teach it for us. Better education is what the whole story is about, get them into college as soon as possible. Then the class is on the student, learn or get left behind. Many now are held up because someone else doesn't care if they learn or not. I goofed off in school, why put someone who doesn't care in a class they will disrupt?

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I don't want to get involved in the argument, but I'd like to clarify something. Someone already noted early on in this topic that the AP classes are online. There are several teachers teaching these classes to any student in the county who wants to take them. So the county schools as a whole share the costs of the teachers, I suppose. I would imagine the state pays part of the costs as well because these teachers teach students from high schools all over Virginia. I know when I was in high school (95-99) they had AP Calculus, English, and History and they were televised over VA. Now they have AP Government and I believe since they started online classes they may even carry World History?

As for our dual enrollment courses, we had English and Pre-Cal, and they were taught at our school by one of our high school teachers. I thought it was a great deal because as long as you pass you are basically guaranteed college credit without having to get a 4 on an AP exam. I didn't have to take any college English and only had to take one semester of Calculus. We did pay tuition, I believe maybe $100 or so, but it was worth it in the long run.

[aphrodite4ever]

wow, everyone shut up real quick.....should I be worried? Did everyone just fall off the face of the earth?