End of Christianity...

**Gotch** · April 22nd, 2009, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by sup-rbeast

....have we determined who's pissed the furthest yet?

Apparently it's not about who, but instead about why and how much

One advantage (if you will) that I've always felt that I had in these type of exchanges is that nothing I've ever seen on a message board has ever actually made me angry.

I debated a fairly well know atheist from Canada almost daily for about 5 years. Yes....I just said FIVE years. We exchanged on a variety of theist subjects. At first he tried a lot of name calling and personal attacks. After a few months he found that they actually harmed his argument and that I was not going to respond in kind so he stopped.

I noticed that although I changed very few of his ideas I did change his approach to others. To this day he uses a much "kindlier, gentler" method of getting his point across.

We also became good friends.

BTW, on the subject of the Quran being a directive and the Old Testament being a narrative history he would be in agreement with me. Why, because he is familiar with both text.

**steer** · April 22nd, 2009, 06:54 PM

Gotch won....
he went the furthest lol

**R13** · April 22nd, 2009, 07:04 PM

Not sure where you got your numbers, they look like the Eurobarometer numbers except you inverted two very important ones in your favor, naughty boy....

Those numbers were copied and pasted from the same wikipedia you got them from, wasn't altered in any way. If you scrolled down and looked, it said that the atheist rates were 46% to 85%.

Also pulled this from a religious site...

"Sweden relinquished its claim of Lutheranism as its State religion in 2000 and now boasts one of the lowest percentage rates of belief in God in the western world. Sweden can safely lay claim to being one of Europe's "least Christian" nations. A poll from 2006 conducted by Dagens Industri revealed Swedes have far more trust in major Swedish businesses, public television, Swedish universities, and the central bank than in the Swedish Church. As the older generation of Swedes passes away, the percentage of reproducing believers decreases. Only five percent of the population regularly attends church."
countries/sweden

But again I still ask, what did the UN survey have to do with it?

----"Because they have been "officially" announced by the communist gov, big difference."

Exactly, thank you

Not sure if you understand, but that's just the announcement by those communist gov..and I don't think a communist gov really "represents its people". But I never mentioned one communist country, I mentioned real ones that weren't communist.

**R13** · April 22nd, 2009, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Counts

For someone that has talked about how they hate religus intolarence you sure seem intolarent of religion.

In the past even if I disagreed with your POV I thought you could(and usaly did) make a good point.....but in this matter you just come off as angry (Am I the only one reading it that way?)

There's a difference. Intolerant of religion itself as opposed to a intolerant of the people simply because of the religion. I never said and do not believe that Christians are bad people or anything like that, my point was that just because someone isn't...doesn't make them bad either and just because someone is, doesn't make them a good person also.

Not angry at anyone, I never called anyone any name and IMO was pretty calm throughout the debate...and most of yall(the ones actually doing the debating) have returned the favor and didn't do that either.

I probably did come off mad about the legislation being decided by religion, that does piss me off with a lo of it. But not mad at anyone personally or anything.

**Gotch** · April 22nd, 2009, 07:37 PM

"Those numbers were copied and pasted from the same wikipedia you got them from, wasn't altered in any way. If you scrolled down and looked, it said that the atheist rates were 46% to 85%."

Not sure how they got altered but they were and still are altered. Here is what you posted on page 17 of this thread:

* 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
* 23% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
* 53% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force".

Here is what that page reads:

23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
23% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force"

Take note of lines 2 and 3.

The poll showing a 46% to 85% atheist rate was conducted by Phil Zuckerman. In case you don't know, Zuckerman is an atheist with an agenda bigger than his ego, which is bigger than Texas. It would be like me quoting a poll conducted by the PTL club.

If you continue to read on it states that another poll showed the percentage at 17%. I'd go with it, really, not just saying that. Using Phil Zuckerman as a source in a serious debate will get you discredited fast than showing up without pants.

**R13** · April 22nd, 2009, 07:47 PM

Not sure how they got altered but they were and still are altered. Here is what you posted on page 17 of this thread:

* 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
* 23% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
* 53% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force".

Here is what that page reads:

23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
23% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force"

It does say that now and it may be true. But honestly when I read it and pasted it, it was just like that. But it could be the other way like you did. Still believe it is about 60 percent.

"The poll showing a 46% to 85% atheist rate was conducted by Phil Zuckerman. In case you don't know, Zuckerman is an atheist with an agenda bigger than his ego, which is bigger than Texas. It would be like me quoting a poll conducted by the PTL club."

"If you continue to read on it states that another poll showed the percentage at 17%."

That was 1 poll. Obviously there are a lot more that have them in very high numbers.
And those numbers were taken as an average from all of the polls taken and that is where he found the numbers, not really one poll made by him from what I understand. I also used the religious site that wouldn't be biased towards it, Sweden IMO has an atheist majority.

**Gotch** · April 22nd, 2009, 07:50 PM

"But again I still ask, what did the UN survey have to do with it?"

Since you have repeatedly stated that we would be better off with a higher atheist rate and a lower rate of believers I assume that quality of life would be better under such circumstances in YOUR opinion?

That poll is about quality of life.

Using the Eurobarometer poll here are the approximate atheist rates for the top five. I stopped there for reasons of time:

Iceland - 11%
Norway -17%
Canada -16%
Australia -19%
Ireland -4%

All about or slightly lower than the U.S. rate with the exception of Ireland which is much lower.

Why are the people of these countries able to have such a high quality of life with so many dang nasty Christians roaming around?

********BUT AGAIN I STILL ASK, DID JESUS CHANGE THE LAW CONCERNING THE STONING OF AN ADULTERER AND AN EYE FOR AN EYE AND THE EATING OF PORK?*************

**Gotch** · April 22nd, 2009, 07:56 PM

"Not sure if you understand, but that's just the announcement by those communist gov..and I don't think a communist gov really "represents its people". But I never mentioned one communist country, I mentioned real ones that weren't communist."

Sin, spin, spin...........you can't get any better than official.

**Gotch** · April 22nd, 2009, 07:59 PM

"It does say that now and it may be true. But honestly when I read it and pasted it, it was just like that. But it could be the other way like you did. Still believe it is about 60 percent."

So, you believe it is what you believe it is? Not what the source you erroneously used says it is? How very convenient.

**Gotch** · April 22nd, 2009, 08:01 PM

"And those numbers were taken as an average from all of the polls taken and that is where he found the numbers, not really one poll made by him from what I understand. I also used the religious site that wouldn't be biased towards it, Sweden IMO has an atheist majority."

All you have to do is look at the Eurobarometer poll that YOU originally posted to see that the 17% figure is far closer than either you or Mr. Zuckerman.