I have a rules question

[R0cketer]

What are the differences between a flagrant foul and an intentional foul and when is it that you can't call a foul 'flagrant'.

[aoa_stripes]

Flagrant would be an act of Fighting (Punching, body slamming Etc...). Or intentionally or flagrantly contacting an opponent during a dead ball.

[CoeburnCane]

Any difference between flagrant & intentional when the kid that was fouled has his leg broke from this kicking/fighting action by the opposing team member?

Because I think that's what happened in this situation that Rock's alluding to...just for your information. Maybe you should take that into consideration when officiating a play and seeing something like that again. If you don't, you may see a lot more broken legs, concussions, open wounds, etc...from the way yourself and the remainder of the AOA has been officiating games around here. Not sure you want that--then again, I'm talking to the same guy who flat out tackled Andrew Adkins when he was a freshman and you were a senior because you were frustrated that Coeburn just beat PV again on your home floor.

I'll give you credit for being out there and trying, and I know you're starting out pretty early in your bball officiating career--but I hope for everyone's sake you get better. I've seen your past few games, and it's not been pretty...may want to hit the books a bit harder.

[imported_UKCats1]

I love it a personal attack from a moderator. Someone who is not supposed to do that. I suggest that you man up and remove the post yourself.

[CoeburnCane]

It's an opinion on his officiating, and I'm telling the truth about everything in the post I made above.

I didn't say word one about him as a person, I recalled a true happening that possibly correlated back to how he officiates an overly physical style of bball that ended up getting a kid's leg broke. That's all.

I didn't personally attack--I criticized the way he officiates--he gets paid for it, and in my mind, it's fair game. It's the same as if the Coalfield had a writer who wrote an editorial on the bad quality of basketball officiating in this area--it's nothing personal--it's a critique to hopefully light a fire under somebody and get them to change for the better.

If you don't agree--let's discuss.

[pvfan]

This really has nothing to do with that call but I'm slowly learning that when you step out onto the floor in the LPD you better be ready. The officiating in the LPD is very political and if you want to win that night you better plan on beating 8, because lord knows what your going to see. I have discussed this with several people including officials away from the forum and it's just a nature of the beast but really is there any official who officiates in the LPD who doesn't have a tie into the game somehow? I'd like to think most of those on here know my feelings, very school spirited, etc. Why would I officiate? There is no way that you could send me to officiate the Appy/JJK game this week and expect me to do a fair job, I know that if Appy wins PV is in first place. The officials around here are all in that position, and if they can ignore that then they are better than I am, especially when they have family members, kids they have coached, neighbors kids, etc being directly affected by the outcome of a game they officiate. It's not going to get any better because it can't get any better, put Cane in the stripes and tell him to go ref TW/Castlewood with Coeburn needing a TW loss to pass them in the standings and see if he refs fair. I'm not saying that he wouldn't but wouldn't it be damn hard not to?

[WiseRecGuy91]

If I recall, a technical foul for unsportsmanlike conduct was called. What else do you want? We can't escort the kid to jail if that's what you were wanting. I feel the right call was made! Period! I came to the conclusion a long time ago that fans have no heart for officials. They hate us one moment and tolerat us the next. You never hear anyone say, "hey, those officials called a great game!" It's always our kids played a great game. But I sure do hear, "those officials screwed us tonight", guess what someone always has to LOSE!! That's life, and that's whats wrong with sports today. I remember growing up and when we lost championship games, I cried, but my parents didn't set there and cuss the officials or blame them for a loss or anyhting like that. They taught me that not everything in life goes your way and you have to learn and build from that. We need more of this in today's world!

Lastly, if the official in question allows for a physical game, what's wrong with that. As long as he gets the call right and from what I know, he called it EXACTLY right!

[CoeburnCane]

There was a kick from the Appy player to the C'wood player's lower leg that caused two separate breaks in it, just above the ankle--from my understanding. The kid couldn't even come close to walking on it. Kicking to me equals the above definition given of "an act of fighting"...especially when it ended up as it did with a kid's leg broke in two places.

An intentional foul technical was called, giving Clintwood 2 FT's and the ball, which was really not helpful considering they were down by 20 before the play. The initial call, by my understanding, was a flagrant foul by the referee in position to make the call. Pat Jervis raised a big stink to the officials saying his kid did nothing--when it was obvious he did plenty w/the C'wood kid on the floor unable to even stand.

The call was apparently changed to the intentional technical variety instead of flagrant when it was ruled "no punch was thrown"--but nowhere in that rule above do I see kicking excluded. It should have been a flagrant foul, 2 FT's, the ball, and the Appy kid ejected and likely gone for 2 games. That would have been the correct call, guy with 2 posts.

But even before all of that--had the game not been called so loosely and some fouls handed out on both sides, maybe that Appy kid wouldn't have felt he had to take things into his own hands and blatantly kick the C'wood kid. That's my ultimate point. The outcome of the game was out of question--the main concern here is that a kid got hurt because of the style of play the refs were allowing to go on by not making the obvious foul calls both ways and keeping some semblance of order. That's happened way too often the past few years for my taste.

[WiseRecGuy91]

I see what we have here now, a person complaining about officials that has been complaining about officials even since he played Intramural Sports at UVa-Wise back in the day. I think its time for some people to grow up!!!

[imported_UKCats1]

Not sure you want that--then again, I'm talking to the same guy who flat out tackled Andrew Adkins when he was a freshman and you were a senior because you were frustrated that Coeburn just beat PV again on your home floor.

So the above statement is not an attack on him? You are basing how he officiates on something that happened in high school as a player? I was ejected 20 years ago from the PV Appy football game is that a basis on how I am going to officiate? I do not think so. I really cannot comment on the ability of any basketball official because I have not been one and I have seen exactly two games in the last 10 years and they were both this year.

PVFAN I have officiated for 20 years and have friends in every town that the association covers. I would never work a PV game because I played here and I live here and do not need the kind of crap in my neighborhood that we are seeing on here and that is personal attacks. To be honest I would have no problem calling a PV game but I would probably be tougher on PV than the other team. I have no doubt in my mind that I would not cheat for one or the other. It all comes down to integrity and I try to keep mine.

Like I have said if you want things changed you must contact your Principal. There is no one else that can make things any better.