Mulholland Drive and SiP

[GaMookie]

Have any of you seen Mulholland Drive? If so, what did any of you think about the depiction of lesbian relationships in the film, especially when contrasted with the relationships presented in SiP.

David Lynch may be a gifted artist, but I am not completely sure I would want him to be the one presenting relationships between females to the public, especially when someone like Terry Moore is taking such a more... accesible approach to the subject.

Anyway, serious thoughts are appreciated.

-RT

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http://www.stickleyandjones.com - The Daily Online comic that is funnier than 'Mark Trail' and 'Steve Canyon' combined!

[wolfbrown]

As a gay woman, I have learned from a long line of unrealistic gay films from DESERT HEARTS to MULHOLLAND DRIVE that even a popular semi-gay-themed film that everyone on earth sees can never represent us. Remember - that godawful "Basic Instinct" that we all had a cow over?
As a casual fan of SIP, I finally met Mr. Moore at the San Diego Comic-Con last year while I was an Exhibitor. To my delight, I found him to be a very cordial, sincere, polite MAN. Oh the horror! A married, balding (sorry Terry, if you are reading this) straight guy writing about a gay woman like he knew what he was talking about, that can't be!

I readevery month about Katchoo and Francine and I can almost SEE them - really SEE them as a real people. We all do, I suppose.

I know that people never believe what they see in movies (thank god - sometimes) about us, but sometime SIP does show aglimpse ofwhat being gay is to some of us. I know I have once been serendipitously in love with a straight girl before and felt all the same things Katchoo has felt, the frustration,the pain, the sadness.

I almost hate a mirror being shown at us more than a lie. ALMOST.

So laugh when you see those dumb ass films like MULHOLLAND DRIVE that people certainly won't believe in and worry a little more about comics like SIP that really do show us how we are.

WolfieBrown




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You grew up in that house by the power lines, didn't you Tina?

[moderndulcinea]

Forget comparing Mullhollan Drive to SIP. That's comparning apples and Jeanette Winterson's oranges.

A more appropriate or interesting comparison would be between Chasing Amy and SIP. Because both deal with lesbian characters who cross the line and love men. (which was a huge controversy about Chasing Amy - many women, including lesbians, bisexuals, and straight women, were upset that the film showed how the "right" guy could "fix" a lesbian and that she'd be into men again).

And of course, both Chasing Amy and SIP are intricately tied to the comics realm.

When I go to comic conventions or signings and see long lines of total freaks, I always think of the marvellous scene from ChasingAmy where the inker gets completely frustrated that no one is insterested in the guy who "traces." :-)

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[World Traveler]

A few thoughts...

To say that the kind of characters and their relationship in Mullholland Drive can never truly represent "us" (us meaning lesbians) is very inaccurate. To say that it can never represent "you" holds far more truth. Because you are different than me, who is different from the characters of that film, who are different from the lesbians in "If These Walls Could Talk" who are different than many other lesbians out there. There might just be some of us who are like that. You never really know till you meet us.

As for Chasing Amy, and SIP, it really always bothers me when people refer to Alyssa and Katchoo as lesbians. Because really, deep down, they're not. Katchoo has even said this on occasion, she just doesn't like men. I wonder though, if the character really is able to love both women and men, much like Alyssa in Chasing Amy. These are both characters confindent enough in themsleves as people that they love who they want to and don't let themsleves be confined or contained by labels. It's the other characters around them that try to impose their close mindedness upon them and force them to choose one way or another. But, Mr. Moore wrote, why can't they have both?

I wish more people were so open-minded.

Just a gentle correction, and something to think about.

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[Thrasymachos]

The first two adjectives I would use to describe Mulholland Drive would not be "lesbian" or "realistic". The movie is two nightmares (literally), with ghosts and furies. The two main characters, Diana and Camilla (where did he get those names from, I wonder?), turn out to have had a lesbian relationship, but the story could have been written to make them heterosexual rivals for a man. The blonde is introduced as an innocent Canadian whose first glimpse of Los Angeles resembles Anne's first glimpse of Green Gables, without any hint of her being a lesbian. Even within the context of the movie itself, this is not a true depiction of her character. I enjoyed this movie very much but I certainly never regarded this as a realistic portrayal of lesbian love.
Chasing Amy is meant to be more realistic, but from a man's viewpoint. Holden is smug at times, but he does not finally convert Alyssa to het-dom.
By the way, Desert Hearts was directed by a woman. But it does have a lot of cliches and country-western music and corniness. The novel upon which it was based, Desert of the Heart, (also written by a woman) had many more layers of meaning.
Basic Instinct is trash, of course.
I hope we're not going to say that only women can write about women and only men can write about men. If that were so then there would be no point in literature.

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Peregrinator in paradiso.

[GaMookie]

>but the story could have been
>written to make them heterosexual
>rivals for a man.

This was very much the vibe I got from the movie. That the sexual relationship was added more so for aesthetic values (mainly, titilation) rather than any deep examinations of emotion or character. The issue of gender was moot because the characters did not behave as "female" or "lesbian" or even necessarily "real life human beings", they behaved like David Lycnh characters.

Anyway, I was curious to see what other people thought.

In the movie "The Celluliod Closet", some of the people interviewed implied that representation of homosexuality was more important than "getting it right".

One of the films cited was "The Hunger", where, I believe, the comment was somewhere along the lines of "yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it is a vampire movie, but it was in there, and that was important."

I think we are at a point as a society where positive representation is more important than simply representation.

Thanks to everyone who responded! I appreciate all of the feedback! You have given me a lot to think about.

-RT

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http://www.stickleyandjones.com - The Daily Online comic that is funnier than 'Mark Trail' and 'Steve Canyon' combined!

[Urban Prophet]

I have not seen the movie, but here's my two cents anyway. I'm a straight male in the US Navy (I know...hard to believe), and an avid fan of SIP. I have many gay friends, both male and female, and I can probably sit here and magnetize each of them to a given depiction of the "gay american" as portrayed in any media...movies, books or even comics. Then tomorrow, I can sit right back down, and tag them with another...beacause what is being portrayed is not the whole picture, but a composite. No one should be looking to Hollywood to tell them what a "lesbian" is in the first place...it's unfair and prone to lead one to make prejudgements, something in this day we do not need more of.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, attacking the entertainment industry for their incorrect interpretaion of any community is like throwing rocks at the Great Wall of China. They do what they do to make a living...a very elaborate and luxurious one, at the expense of someone's feelings or opinions. Look at Shallow Hal.

Terry IS an excpetion...he is as realistic as you can get when writing fiction. Learn from the people around you...that is real life.

Wow, it's late.

Ron

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Find what's good, and make it last.