SiP 45 *SPOILERS*

[GeminiCancer]

Hmm.
Things I've been thinking about a lot...

Why this huge, seemingly off topic story at the beginning from Miss Noel? I don't think it was only meant to make us see Freddie in a better light. You'd have to be more than just a jerk to not react emotionally to her story. You'd have to be a very hard and cruel person. What did she do to make Dumoni think she deserved this? He calls her a sinner... why? And yes, Freddie feels sorry for what happened to her. But then what does he do? Calls Katchoo a witch, says Katchoo tried to turn "my girl" (his girl???) into a "lezzbean", etc. Freddie is obsessed. Dumoni was obsessed. Freddie maybe won't go taking a hammer to anyone, but it's still not healthy.

What is Miss Noel here for? Her main message is that you can't let what people do to you consume you, or else they take everything from you. She's gone through more shit than anyone in this story (yes, I think getting beaten in the head with a hammer and living through it is worse than the stuff Katchoo has gone through). Yet in her demeanor, she is far more calm and centered than anyone in the entire story, and this is because of her outlook.

And I'm not ashamed to say that for a moment, I fell in love with Ms. Noel, and her beautiful eyes and eyebrows. And the scar on her lip, which mirrors mine (although mine is not as pronounced).

But what happens?
Freddie freaks. Again. In direct contrast with Noel's calm.

David continues the "I hate Tambi" game, which I don't think is fair, either. Tambi doesn't like him for reasons we don't completely know about. But David should at least understand why Katchoo wants to see her. Besides, at one time, people David didn't like woke up dead, too.
David also pulls that "we'll talk about it later" crap. This is what AsIs means when she talks about emotional blackmail; it's that he can't just wait to talk about it when they get back, he has to start off on the wrong foot with Tambi and then go into what may essentially have been "you're in trouble young lady, and we will discuss this when your friends leave." That's pretty bad, to end a visit with friends on a negative note so that everyone is uncomfortable. He should have thought before making that "we'll talk about this when you get back" statement. No, he couldn't have predicted that fight, but he could have at least known that he was at least going to make everyone miserable and uncomfortable. I don't know that I'd call it emotional blackmail, but whatever works. Words, words, words.
I also don't like that "now you want my self-respect" line. No dude, you're just giving it away with the package. I think David very much enjoys being the martyr, which in itself is not healthy.
Going back to Ms. Noel's message, what is it that David smashed? It looks like splintering wood. What the hell was that, the kitchen cabinet? I thought that was a severely disturbing scene. David totally gave in to anger.

Katchoo... sigh. No, she's not treating David well. But she's not sure how to handle him, either. Be nice to him, he gets the wrong idea. Be mean to him, he quickly presents the other cheek. I mean, what would you do in her position? And he was soooo whiney. "I don't like your sister. We need to talk." She got angry, but it was more controlled. She just let him know that she'd had it. David got scary-angry.

By the way, Terry, I thought this scene was very well drawn. After Katchoo calls him an asshole, that black blob growing behind her... towards him... like her anger at him was reaching over him. Then when he says he's given everything up, that black circle around him... wow. And the following you around like a dog panel... almost comical in it's representation. Very nicely drawn scene, man.

Anyway. I think Katchoo really did want to talk after David made the comment about his self respect. I'd like to know what she had to say. It's too bad she had to go. And I think it's really bad that David left her a note and left. He gave her no chance. All he's ever wanted from Katchoo is a chance; he blindly accepts all of her flaws in hopes that that and his persistence will impress her or wear her down. Then when she needs a chance, what does he give her? Nada.

Anyway, the other major character developments:
Casey... wow. What a transformation. Joe is good for her, and I don't mean that "she needs a good man" thing. He respects her; how many people have given that to Casey?

Francine: good on ya. But don't talk to Chuck anymore; he can't keep his mouth shut.

I wish I knew what Katchoo and Francine were talking about at the end. I'm glad that they were genuinely happy in that moment. I just wish I was in on the conversation so I'd have a clue about what to expect next! But the use of the song "In My Life" makes a pretty clear point; people come and go, Katchoo and Fran stay.

And back to my Noel comparison, in the end, they don't appear to be letting what's happened consume them. They just talk, and enjoy each other in the way they enjoy each other.

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"They mostly come out at night. Mostly." --Newt, Aliens

"I can crack all your ribs, but I can't break your heart." --Jill Sobule

"Take it easy, but take it." --Woody Guthrie

[GeminiCancer]

Sorry that was so long. You may want to print it and read it a little at a time over the weekend...

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"They mostly come out at night. Mostly." --Newt, Aliens

"I can crack all your ribs, but I can't break your heart." --Jill Sobule

"Take it easy, but take it." --Woody Guthrie

[Zephrin]

Hmmmm....my thoughts?

I think, don't discount Freddie's character growth in the beginning of the issue just because he then fell back into 'jerk mode'. Remember, people don't just change major personality flaws overnight; he and Chuck still have a way to go on the woman's case, so this might be the beginning of a more sensative trend for Freddie.

Casey? You go girl! When she met Joe on the plane I had a feeling he might be more than a 'one-page stand' (hee hee), but she's coming closer to respecting herself. Although pretty flakey in the 'ten years later' scene in the hotel, she absolutely had an independant, power-woman thing going. I hope she keeps in that direction.

I love Tambi, can't wait to learn more about her, Bambi, and Katchoo's past...we need to see more of her!

Ok, here we go with the David/Katchoo thing. IMHO, David probably should have wigged out in front of Katchoo and here's why; Katchoo's not really seeing David as a 'man' although she tries to ascribe negative male aspects to him. She calls him a sheep or a puppy because he's never been forceful or in any way agressive around her (the only closest example would be the time he grumbled on the plane). I'm not sure how Katchoo would have responded to seeing him that angry, but it definately would have gotten her attention.

On the Francine side of life, I'm glad she got over herself and struck out on her own, and for those who've said they wished they knew what she and Katchoo were talking about at the end, we don't need to. Just by their expressions I can tell it's stuff like, "Yeah, but then the guy behind me in line at the supermarket said that, can you believe it?" or "I saw the funniest shaped sea-shell the other day..." Just stuff, but the stuff that friends talk about. It was touching, and I almost started crying.

I can't help but feel, however, that this is just the calm before an even bigger storm...

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"You can't have sex....you're a mouse!" "I'm a very big mouse..."

[Mibbitmaker]

On David/Katchoo: I don't think we saw emotional blackmail, or anything else like that. I took it as THAT was the moment he felt they need to talk, but the situation around them(Casey & Joe going on their plane) didn't allow that, so they need to do it the next possible time: when she gets back. More an inconvenient timeframe than anything.

On the first page: It didn't strike me at first, but I had a thought.
What if this Dumoni was a pre-nicified David? Still in his gangland thug mode, under(another) assumed name. Maybe his religious conversion wasn't from point A to point Z. This Dumoni had a nearly Taliban-like religious fervor. David could've found God, but only later discovered the decent side of religion. Terry said in the chat(I think then) he believed in religion but had reservations about some of it. David could've started reflecting what Terry dislikes about religion, then become the kind of Christian Terry approves of(and is like himself, generally speaking).

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"Wars don't last forever, only war does."
- "Hawkeye Pierce" (MASH)
(Larry Gelbart, Laurence Marks)

[This message has been edited by Mibbitmaker (edited December 15, 2001).]

[happybunny2]

Just got my copy yesterday.

After the last two issues it was nice to get back on track.

I loved this issue,loved the sight of Freddie in the pick-up truck;with the flowers on his head.
But most of all I loved to see my favorite Casey,I`ve always had a soft spot for her.The scene at the airport between her and Katchoo was wonderful.

...

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It's simple tips like these
That keep you safe from injuries
The surgeon general should do his part:
Warning, beware, be careful - Fragile Heart

Words By Jewel(EDA)

[VeronicaPace]

Geiminicancer...

"I also don't like that "now you want my self-respect" line. No dude, you're just giving it away with the package. I think David very much enjoys being the martyr, which in itself is not healthy."

I disagree. David has given Katchoo (and Francine) a LOT. He stepped away from his sister's empire, he heard his cousin (Veronica) die at the hands of Tambi, the same woman that killed his sister! Veronica and Darcy were no angels, but hey were his family, I would feel pretty angry if my sibling's murderer was cooking steaks on the barbie while my girlfriend didn't seem to care...David has a conscience, and yes, he is violent at times. How much of this new violence can be attributed to the plane crash? We all know his skull was completely fractured...David has been trying to reach Kat forever, never seems to work, maybe by putting himself bare she would listen. I don't see it as blackmail because that entails punishment or threats, there were none of either...

"I thought that was a severely disturbing scene. David totally gave in to anger"

He has done this previously. Recall issue 34 when Veronica's goons were going to kill him, he killed them in self-defence. Also remember Katchoo treated him like DIRT. She called him an asshole and a dog, wow I wouldn't be too happy if that happened to me

"David continues the "I hate Tambi" game, which I don't think is fair, either. Tambi doesn't like him for reasons we don't completely know about. But David should at least understand why Katchoo wants to see her. Besides, at one time, people David didn't like woke up dead, too. "

Ok, let's see, I'm David Qin, my sister-in-law (practically) killed my sister Darcy, my cousin Veronica and who knows who else I'm close to,but hey let's all be happy joy joy!
Yes, I'm sure David has killed before, there is proof of this in issue 34, but did he kill relatives of Francine? Or Katchoo? There is a nuance in that those David has lost are blood, those David has killed are "red shirts" in Star Trek terms the guys who get shot first...


"And I think it's really bad that David left her a note and left. He gave her no chance. All he's ever wanted from Katchoo is a chance; he blindly accepts all of her flaws in hopes that that and his persistence will impress her or wear her down"

Heh. David has done SO much for Katchoo, he gave up his heritage, money, risked his life, has been emotional support for her, has put up with abuse I would wish on no one, emasculation, and for what? Katchoo refuses to acknowledge their relationship as anything but platonic even after seducing David (issue 38)...David has been giving Katchoo chances forever, he keeps asking her she says no, asking she says no, asking her she says no. When it gets too much she calls him a dog and an asshole. GREAT FRIEND!Katchoo should just have broken it off instead of leading him on...David did the right thing, he has his self-respect back and he is going home. More power to him.

"David says he's given up everything to be with Katchoo. What has he given up? (I'm not being cynical, I'm honestly wondering what he left behind. Is he telling her/us that he became a Christian and left the mafia because of his love for Katchoo"

David left behind vast money, political clout, and his family. The last is extremely relevant (STEREOTYPE ALERT) because if we recall that David is Asian, it is generally assumed that family bonds are quite strong in such families. Losing your sister and cousin and never expressing any anger or anything...

As for Dumoni (sp?) I also thought about David...wasn't he an art student at one point? Dumoni was borrowing brushes? Didn't Veronica also have several aliases?

Brrrrrr......I don't even want to think of the possibility..

Hugs
Veronica



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[Jadian]

Couple things that caught my attention:

David says he's given up everything to be with Katchoo. What has he given up? (I'm not being cynical, I'm honestly wondering what he left behind. Is he telling her/us that he became a Christian and left the mafia because of his love for Katchoo?)

And I assumed his line about people Tambi doesn't like waking up dead was in reference to his sister. David may have changed his ways, but he hasn't forgotten the workings of it all. I think he's allowed to be resentful and angry that the woman who murdered his sister is hanging around his place intimidating him, and the woman he loves who is meant to be his friend (if nothing else) is not tuning into it. I'm pretty sure David knows who murdered Darcy.

I think the timing of their talk is irrelevant. Katchoo would have reacted that way no matter when David brought it up. I was especially surprised to see Kat haul out her old, old Freddie jab: "Every dog gets a bone if he begs long enough - you got yours!"
She's equating David to Freddie. To me, that line more than anything else in the series has made me step back and look at Katchoo in a different light.
When David is being supportive, and she needs him, he's her best friend in the world. Remember the conversation they had, sitting ont he couch, just before Kat found out Francine was flying to Hawaii? She spelt things out for him there, but she also accepted him into her inner circle. She likes David when he acts like an eunuch. As soon as he starts expressing desires she doesn't like she does a complete 180 and demotes him to being just like "every dog" (any man). Whatever David's irritating hopefulness called for, it wasn't that. I agree that she was asking for his self respect, and I didn't think he was being manipulative saying that. What else could he have said?
She's a fair weather friend. Being a friend doesn't just mean you'll rescue some one from the clutches of a hostile mafia. It means on a day to day basis you listen, you try to understand, you support. You give the other basic respect and affection, and love. Being a friend doesn't mean you make a person's life hell, dangling an unspoken subject over their heads like a treat to a dog. Being a friend doesn't mean you treat the other like a dog -
- even if they're acting like one.

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But it's true even if it didn't happen.
Life has both a major and a minor key.

Feminist Rants

And this place where I work... http://www.rainbowrubbercondomsandmore.com/

[Branflakes]

Does David know that Tambi killed Darcy?? We know it, but is there an issue where we see he gets that knowledge? Not that it's that hard for anyone to figure out.

Also, I'm not sure David walked away from Darcy just for Katchoo. I'm not saying he hasn't made great sacrifices for Kat, but he seemed very dissatisfied with that life style before he knew Kat (remember him telling Darcy she couldn't own people. This was before he met Kat at the party).

While I could see the fact that Tambi killed Veronica as bothering David, I'm not so sure it bothers him enough to affect his relationship with Tambi. Afterall, Veronica tried to kill him (causing that plane to crash). My impression is that David has disliked Tambi for quite awhile. His concern might be a fear that Tambi may one day draw Kat back into mafia work.


That beginning page also has me wondering about Ms. Noel and this Dumoni. I think there will be more there in future issues.



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[flyonwall]

umm, how about this to go with the david/noel connection:
there is that one issue where david has pains in his head. is this maybe remembering the hammering thing he did to noel? or seeing someone else do it? maybe someone part of the bigsix?
noel says, "i still get these migraines that last for days." hmmm.
just a thought.
also, there is probably an obvious answer to this question but what the heck is that notelike thing doing in the upper left hand corner of the page when casey gets the call from francine?
i got this image of someone from the whole big six type thing bugging katchoo's house and this is them writng what they hear down. it would connect with david going back to tokyo? maybe? i think i am a bit delusional here but the point of it is still bugging me.
regardless, i like the connection between noel and david. plus, if it is true, the story is going to get mighty ugly(-er)than molly and poo,hence, the re-issue as a sort of "why not" gesture.

floating into dangerous waters. i like it.

anyone?

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[GeminiCancer]

Veronica, you say he gave up his heritage. Can you explain what you mean by this? His Asian heritage (if so, how)? His heritage of Darcey's empire (did he want it anyway)? And his inheritance was claimed by the government. I think if anything, David has given up his independence to be with Katchoo. Now, that's a lot, but David doesn't seem very happy on his own. There's nothing wrong with that; David's a good guy, and seems very interested in doing the right thing. But I think he's chosen the wrong woman.

By the way, even if David did give up everything to be with Katchoo, she wouldn't owe him anything. A stalker may give up everything for you; do you owe him anything? (And no, I'm not calling David a stalker, just using an extreme example to make a point).

When it comes down to it, I think Katchoo has messed up and David has messed up. She did things that she shouldn't have, and I'm sure she regrets them. He did things in the last issue that he shouldn't have, and he probably will regret them. I think if Katchoo had thought twice, she would not have called him an asshole. I think that was an angry reaction because he had been getting on her nerves for quite some time at that point. I think if David had thought it through a little better, he wouldn't have told Katchoo that they needed to talk when they got back. Couldn't he have just waited until they got back to bring it up? There are a lot of could-haves in this issue, and I think that David wouldn't be on a plane at the end of the issue if that argument had not happened when it did.

As for Tambi; it's kind of odd to me that some people want us to consider David's feelings regarding the sister that shot him and, apparently, sexually abused him, and the cousin that tried to kill him and that David never showed any affection for whatsoever, but there is very little sympathy for the fact that Tambi is Katchoo's sister. She's mending a broken family tie, and Katchoo has so little with her family. Can you blame her for wanting that, to be friends with the daughter of her dad, whom she loved? Katchoo never gave David grief for being Darcey's brother. I think David is afraid of Tambi, and dislikes her because she keeps her mafia connections. He has his reasons for that. But he should try to understand why Katchoo wants to be close to her sister.

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"They mostly come out at night. Mostly." --Newt, Aliens

"I can crack all your ribs, but I can't break your heart." --Jill Sobule

"Take it easy, but take it." --Woody Guthrie

[This message has been edited by GeminiCancer (edited December 17, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by GeminiCancer (edited December 17, 2001).]