Any Gay Drummers out there?

**FlamTriplet** · January 16th, 2006, 05:02 AM

Originally posted by spaceotter:
Apologies for sheer length. There's a lot going on.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Derek DeFields:
I'll admit I was close to the delete button when I saw the very first post on this thread. (no one had replied yet)

Derek, there is a part of me wishes that you had deleted this thread, and that we could go back to a less socially complicated time on HOD, where we just talked about Vinnie, Dave, Dennis, etc. as Suspira or others have suggested. I saw it just after it was posted, and literally said "OH SH**"...thereafter frozen and checking the thread in a kind of fatalistic horror and fascination for about 24 hours before I could respond. I even wondered if it was some kind of weird trap, a possibility I haven't completely ruled out. Discussions about "Jazz vocab" or "Reading" feel light & easy to me by comparison.

What's happened has happened, though, and I just hope some good comes of it.

I've been mulling a further response for days, watching the evolving thread and feeling a little...paralyzed? Sometimes, sick to my stomach. Sh*t, did I really write that? Can this thread get weirder? What the hell do I say now? Did I just make an a** of myself standing up for someone who really IS a troll, or at very least needs some lessons in cultural context (or to stop getting drunk before posting)? "The nurse left my glasses downstairs?????" Holy crap, what kind of bizarre alternate reality am I now enmeshed in? I mean, my life isn't particularly typical but this is just freakin weird.

First, thanks to those who have taken this conversation seriously, and have kept it real. There is a middle road between knee-jerk machismo, fire & brimstone morality, and rank & file political correctness. All are dogma, and dogma is a dead thing IMO. I respect that people have wildly different feelings on this topic and come from many places. I want to keep present & human in all conversations here. On that note...

Originally posted by ntbCreative:
i know that the gay community is a tight knit one and that support is appreciated and well respected but you have to watch how you present yourself.

NTB, You're right: I lost my cool, and I apologize for the harsh language and tone I took in my rant. Afterwards, I felt like a bit of a fool for going off so severely, and furthermore very much on proverbial "Front Street" with so many deeply held feelings on display for everyone to ogle at and discuss. I guess the whole thread just hit a raw nerve for me, having experienced the intersection between drumming and "gay" very keenly. I have also watched people die, get killed, destroy themselves (directly or indirectly) etc. because of hatred towards gay people. And my self-righteous anger got the best of me, shades of Darth Vader: "Luke, listen to your anger..."

I don't want to be a kiss-a** sellout who just tries to get along at all costs. Some things--your family, friends, livelihood, self-respect--cannot be compromised however (or, you do so at your peril). Neither do I wish to be a militant, confrontational radical, a "spokesperson/re-educator," the "cultural elite," or the "thought police." All of that is emotionally impure IMO.

I do care about community and about communicating things that are true and heartfelt, and have enjoyed hanging at HOD. I stand by the essence of what I said, but I agree with my critics in that I could have said it better. Guess that always applies.

------------

That said...I have met very few gay drummers in my lifetime. I don't really know why as I have been keeping a careful look-out for 20 years. The only one I can name from a major act would be the guy who plays for Built to Spill. (I had thought that Siggi Baldursson from the Sugarcubes was also, but apparently this was wrong--it was their bass player, who used to be married to the Siggi's twin sister. Map that one out.) And some guys for minor bands like Pansy Division (gay punks) and some local urban west coast gay-focused affinity bands. Most of these affinity bands even have a near impossible time finding gay drummers, and hire heterosexual guys. I have some suspicions about some bigger players, but no real data. It remains an open question.

Originally posted by Suspiria:
Your sexuality doesn't matter. Leave it alone and stick to drum-talk.

It shouldn't make a damn bit of difference, or at least in any negative way. Truly, truly: who cares, unless we mean that "your difference adds spice." It shouldn't matter, but it does because people's attitudes affect who they play music with. I would love it if it didn't matter, and this conversation didn't exist. It's circular: if it didn't matter, it wouldn't matter. You wouldn't get fired, or people wouldn't hesitate calling you because of it. If it didn't matter in US culture, people wouldn't be taunted, huge piles of money would not be raised on the topic during election years, statewide referenda wouldn't be made to deny certain citizens certain rights.

Still, I cannot help but notice that of the thousands of drummers I'm aware of, almost none are "out"--and all of those are small-time or no longer play. It seems disproportionate to the probable reality of the situation. Why has drums lagged behind other areas? Why are instrumentalists, and jazz musicians in particular skewed in this way? Why do gay people in 2006 tend as a group to look down their noses at jazz/fusion, and vice-versa? Does it say something about gay/straight cultures, about the jazz world, or both? And what? Or is it completely meaningless? And what would it mean for a gay drummer who is into jazz/fusion?

Part of my curiosity is simply a really superficial, problematic (but deeply felt) matter of representation: if there were virtually nobody "like" you in your field, wouldn't you wonder why? There's been a lot of talk about people needing to see people like them represented--i.e., no Latinos on American TV or what have you. It's not cultural affirmative action as much as...well...kind of, if I am not represented, am I real? Do I exist? Am I a valid opiton? Kind of stupid questions when put in words, but they are real nonetheless. This is not an experience limited to gays or ethnic minorities--people who are "odd wo/men out" often ask questions about why.

As for Steve Smith? No clue. Bozzio and Mangini I really think are truly het. Tony? I heard he had a disturbing sexual orientation toward minors, but that is hearsay and I don't want that to be confused with gays or lesbians. I have heard statistics that the vast majority of pedophiles--more than is proportional--are heterosexual in their adult choices, regardless the gender of child they predate. I know statistics are in the realm of lies often, but in my experience this connection between gays and pedophiles is a myth and a really nasty one. I don't want to give it any credence whatsoever. And, Tony is a god, drumming wise, gossip notwithstanding. Maybe the point of this is that life is a very complicated and mysterious thing and understanding a luxury. Or maybe there is no point.

Originally posted by Henry II:
I would respectfully suggest that you stop referring to yourself with the pejorative labels used by heteros like fag or queer...I can think of nothing positive or helpful to you in adopting and internalizing such labels, or at least, the benefit is outweighed by the detriment of such adoptions.

Henry, Henry...I really enjoy your presence here. And I think I get what you are trying to say, and that it comes from a good place. So thanks for that. But I'm a student of words, with an advanced degree in writing, and I've actually written on this topic. I'll be damned if I'm going to be afraid of words. If it's effective, I'm using it, especially in a polemic. In fact, in that regard, my rant is ironically in the spirit of "Henry II v. Benrand," the venom from which was part of my inspiration for getting so raw...LOL

As Q-Tip from A Tribe Called Quest says in their track "Sucka Nigga"--examining his addiction to using the N-word and the political complications--"We embrace adversity/it goes right with the race. And being as we use it as a term of endearment.../ I start to flinch / as I try not to say it / but my lips are like an 'ooo-wop' as I start to spray it..." Yes, I agree it's problematic though, and can see many sides of this issue.

By the way, I was a little surprised that the reigning "Mr. Liberal-I-Hate-George-W-Bush Voice of HOD" was not on the front lines of this particular issue. Henry, you're getting lax on us... [img]wink.gif[/img] OK, OK, j/k. I'm just giving you a rough time. Truth is I envy your ability to stand up for what you believe so consistently and vehemently.

Muskateer/NED: YOU ROCK, as usual. By the way that Scassa Monakee track you shared a while ago is tight and has been on constant iTunes rewind lately. The drumming is great, and the d&b rapping/toasting is raw. If there's more where that came from, can you hook a f****t up? (Sorry Henry, I couldn't resist)

Originally posted by drumaddix:
it's 2006 and it's high time we realized that differences is the most precious thing we have on this planet...

Word. I agree. They are precious and simultaneously terrifying. I can see many points of view on this. It's not like I understand or feel comfortable with everyone who is different from me. Some differences I find alienating and struggle to understand, so I empathize with those who are scared of difference in general.

But I do try to understand and relate to people different than me, to well, Enjoy Diversity, if you will. Damn, where would I be without all the food? Music? The sounds of language? Ideas?

Originally posted by drumaddix:
that is the most interesting post in months.
...
Otter,your post was VERY relevant to drums but even more to life in general which makes it my favorite topic of the month.Way to go bro'. [img]wink.gif[/img]
You gave us all a great lesson of courage and honesty and you have my most sincere respect.

Sheesh. [img]redface.gif[/img] Thanks d/a. Very kind and humbling feedback.

Originally posted by moldynudger:
Hey, Thanks for your posts. By the way where do you live, and what do you look like. Also are you fan of George Takie?? I'd love to meet you 'em kay! HUGHHUGH

OK...WTF, dude??? I stick my neck all the way out for you and this is what I get? You making me and others uncomfortable with creepy pseudo-sexual innuendo? Rudy and Matricks are right--this AIN'T a hook up. You've managed to piss my partner off, insult people who were supportive, and abuse the trust of everyone else here. One wants to be compassionate and give the benefit of the doubt, but any way you slice it, your vibe is "essence of troll."

Even in the increasingly unlikely event that you are legit and NOT a fake, please check yourself. At very least, drinking and HOD do not mix.

-------
Whew.

Thanks also to everybody else who had things to say esp. Andy, Rudy, NTB, Derek, Peter, Matricks, JoesMech, Pocket...and thanks to the rest for patience (?). Though I must admit I'm puzzled by those who would rather not talk/hear about any of this but managed to click on the thread nonetheless and post cogent responses...what was that about? A kind of morbid fascination that affects the fingers?? [img]wink.gif[/img]

So how 'bout that Vinnie?

Peace==otter

PS--Just saw Steve's post after spending the afternoon writing this. "Between my KKK and NAMBLA meetings, it's a wonder I have time to moderate at all??" Dude, OMG, LMAO, ROFL. A zillion stars.

[ January 15, 2006 11:03 PM: Message edited by: spaceotter ]<hr /></blockquote>Homophobia runs rampant on the net. I'm straight and i could give a rat's ass if you are gay or not.

**Steve Holmes** · January 16th, 2006, 06:46 AM

Way to quote the whole post Flam. [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img]

**Lee Collins** · January 16th, 2006, 09:34 AM

haha [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

**LDGuy** · January 16th, 2006, 05:57 PM

"Best... thread... ever."

**djmuskateer** · January 17th, 2006, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by spaceotter:

Muskateer/NED: YOU ROCK, as usual. By the way that Scassa Monakee track you shared a while ago is tight and has been on constant iTunes rewind lately. The drumming is great, and the d&b rapping/toasting is raw. If there's more where that came from, can you hook a f****t up? (Sorry Henry, I couldn't resist)

Cheers dude, I'll PM you as soon as I have more than five seconds not decorating my house or being at work!

**spaceotter** · January 18th, 2006, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Henry II:
Otter, Your last post read like a farewell speech. Hope not.

Probably not. I do get self-conscious and often disappear for a few days after posting as I put a lot of thought & self into it then often feel overexposed. Whatever. I meant what I said--I enjoy this place too much. Thanks for the encouragement to hang despite social weirdness around disclosure.

Originally posted by muskateer:
Cheers dude, I'll PM you as soon as I have more than five seconds not decorating my house or being at work!

Thanks Ned. Peace all.
O

**Henry II** · January 18th, 2006, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by spaceotter:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Henry II:
Otter, Your last post read like a farewell speech. Hope not.

Probably not. I do get self-conscious and often disappear for a few days after posting as I put a lot of thought & self into it then often feel overexposed. Whatever. I meant what I said--I enjoy this place too much. Thanks for the encouragement to hang despite social weirdness around disclosure.

* * *
<hr /></blockquote>One of the smartest guys I know has a very simple saying that is univerally applicable: "it is what it is." Why not elect to feel liberated.

[ January 18, 2006 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Henry II ]

**DPFRD** · January 24th, 2006, 10:55 PM

Cool edit pro is now adobe audition. The adobe version now supports VST pugins.

Thread: Any Gay Drummers out there?

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