Donati Dead Center!

**PocketPlayer** · July 28th, 2002, 08:58 AM

I was a little critical of Virgil last time I saw him because he was throwing his 'bag of tricks' in at the end of every tune and his fills seemed to be so athletic rather than musical.
So in fairness, I must say that playing with Patrice Rushen on keys and Bunny Brunel on bass tamed the beast. He was unreal tonight. I mean the guy's technique is really overwhelming, and when used properly can make an incredible statement. He still played his ninja drumming stuff- but played pocket much more, creating space while phrasing musically. Tony MacAlpine was on his game also.
I must say also, that every time I speak with him afterwards he is humble, friendly, and nice-contrary to some on-line opinions.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 28, 2002 05:59 AM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>

**FuseU1** · July 28th, 2002, 06:01 PM

[This is in no way directed at Pocket Player [cool post], or anyone else for that matter, unless "the shoe fits...."]
Ah, yes, m' man Virgil - what a jaw-dropper. He has the drumming world in a tizzy. Of course he's gonna be threatening during the 1st few years that he 'hits the [world] scene' - & rightly so - this guy is terrifying. [Except for maybe the Vinnies/Weckls/Minnemanns/Novaks/Grattons/Tommy Campbells etc. of this world; & maybe even then?!]
Now, I've seen & heard some things said over the years on these matters, & I feel this needs 2 b said in defense of the virtuosotic 'recipients' of this type of mindset. - There sometimes tends to be a misconception amongst 'onlookers,' I've noticed, to be critical of the 'new smoking gun;' to find his weakness, his achilles heel, so to speak. Such as, 'overplays,' or 'too many chops.' While this can indeed be true [within the context of the tune/music style that is being played,] I find it is often not the case, ESPECIALLY w/ professional players [who do have great 'chops'] who have made it into this [working]upper echelon [& if the other musicians that he/she's playing w/ allow them to 'stretch out']. For instance, if he's so unmusical, why are many pros from different styles of music clamoring to play w/ him? The more one hears him, the more one has to understand the paradox; the more he is heard [& as a result, having the opportunity to be put under a microscope by 'the higher critic'] means that more of his peers are hiring him to work for them. So, how is it that he is 'so undesirable' a player?! I certainly would never tell this guy to his face that he should tone down his playing - what right do I have to tell one of the most astoundingly accomplished drumset virtuoso's of all time something like that?! Man, all this stuff is just what it is - jealousy/& or envy. Cut the cr**, put the rubber where it meets the road, and get on w/ it. This is done because the individual in question has just had the stability of his[/her]world [thru their 'ego's eyes'] rocked, & in order to make themselves feel better about/validate themselves. For some, it is a hard pill to swallow to find that after you've sweated years of what you thought was hard practice [not that you didn't!!], only to find someone who spent LONGER & HARDER, come on the scene.
What I've found over the years is [except for the 'garage band' type 'mentality-at-the-local-small-smokey-bar-type-place' level], the more 'chops' the professional working player has, the more able he is to control his 'overplaying,' & NOT the other way around. I've seen Vinnie, Dave [W], & Virgil lay it down w/out a lot of 'flitty-witty' stuff [as Vinnie describes it on MDF 2000], & we all know that this is not because they don't have the chops. They have the ability to play 'all this stuff' and tone it down if needed; as opposed to not having much technique, but still being able to keep good [& musical] time; but not necessarily having enough 'fireworks' when needed [which they can as well.]
& don't say "Virgil can't groove" if he wants to. This is absurd. The guy has what it takes to be a player in this modern world [where it is heading]: GREAT TIMING. If one has any doubts about this, just listen to his 1st solo CD, "On the Virg/Serious Young Insects." Check out "Alien Hip-Hop, Out of the Haze, Trencherman, Sort Yourself Out, Pyramids On Mars, Native Metal, Run'g w/ the Alien;" just to name a few. Your head will be spinnin. THIS is where modern progressive/fusion-rock drumming [not to 'pidgeonhole' it; just for lack of a better phrase]has evolved to. & when you hear it, you know it's Virg - a fresh new sound on the drumming scene, Even the other heavywts. know it. Dave Weckl said to me [I had the good fortune of being able to speak to he & Dennis C at a clinic] about Virgil: "That guy scares me." SCARES WECKL! & Dennis said "Man, that guy is SICK." Dave & Dennis sayin that about the guy!! This means that he has their endorsement as far as ability is concerned. & if THEY say it, I, 4 1, "believe it, baby [Austin Powers]."

**PocketPlayer** · July 28th, 2002, 08:03 PM

Right on Fuse! I love the passion.
Steve, the music was varied- funk, jazz, fusion- a great set of music- very impressive!

Because I had this type of conversation last night driving home w/my buddy, I will make a comment, knowing you were making a point rather than commenting just to me...

"new smoking gun;' to find his weakness, his Achilles heel,...For instance, if he's so unmusical, why are many pros from different styles of music clamoring to play w/ him?...how is it that he is 'so undesirable' a player?!"

Whoa...who's saying Virgil can't groove or is undesirable? Let's not throw the baby out w/t/bathwater here. When I pay my $20 at the door and two drink minimum I sit as a spectator, a fan, and music lover...as well as drummer. I chose to see a gig, actually scheduled and rearranged things around to attend. We even had a dinner party before the gig, playing Planet X stuff.

When I watch someone, whether it was Toss Panos on Friday or Virgil Saturday, I look at a variety of things- the time, feel, groove, phrasing, etc. When I see a drummer who doesn't "have it" that night, like any performance, there is a time to evaluate. This in no way means that I or someone else (depending on their maturity) is searching to find their weakness or labeling them an undesirable player...it just come with being 'on stage' in a professional setting. If I was watching a buddy play in his garage band, my expectation would be on a completely different level. Would the same evaluation be of merit? Yes...again, this goes back to my post about the 7 Habits of effective drummers. There are some absolutes in the drumming world.

What my buddy and I discussed was more in line with the juvenile attitude of, "Virgil's the best drummer and everybody sucks- Smith, Garibaldi..." He saw David Garibaldi w/Jeff Berlin last week and said he stunk because he didn't play fast or amaze him. That's just immaturity. I expect that from a 20YO but not a guy who is almost 40 and claims to love music as he does. He should know better and have the mental files to understand the difference between a player like Virgil and Jeff Porcaro. I just think he doesn't want to see beyond fusion-esq type music and to think outside of his mental music box- it isn't part of his view right now. Drummers like Jim Keltner, Bernard Purdie, Joel Taylor, Manu Katche, Porcaro, Joey Heredia, Toss Panos...they just aren't 'amazing' enough for him. That's fine until he starts to put down guys like Steve Smith or Garibaldi...well, then I will say something to help expand his little mental drumming box...again this guy isn't 20, he's almost 40 so I lay into him a little harder at times.

"One of the greatest compliments to any artist is a repeat customer who keeps coming back!"

**FuseU1** · July 28th, 2002, 08:20 PM

OK - after I've read my own "novel" [again-whew] above [sorry, people], I know I might get some flack from out there in cyberspace. I do take into consideration the fact that some may say that Virg doesn't [-"have that magical element to the-"] groove, such as Gadd, Garibaldi, Purdie, Porcaro, et. al., did. Well, this may be true as far as the subleties those individual guys had within the groove [not that Virg doesn't have dynamics - he does]; or that he plays w/ too much 'athleticism/muscularity;' but please understand - that's WHAT IT IS. That's what he's doing; that's what the style calls for. He's just a champ who's comfortable pulling off the stuff he's capable of [not to mention 'toning it down' when the gig calls 4 it [more space, etc.] Man, I know more will be coming, but I'm telling ya I've yet 2 c someone in 'rock' w/ more ideas, chops, understanding of 'compound/complex rhythms,' or 'better feet.' Not 2 mention, he has the marching corps stick-tricks DOWN to boot. Only Sonny Emory comes to mind as having that level of showmanship [as well as technique & timing], which he does.
Besides, there are plenty of different guys 2 listen 2, for all kinds of bags. I listen to Virg when I'm in the mood 4 that "rip-your-head-off prog-rock/fus metal;" not when I'm in the mood 4 "50 Ways 2 Leave Your Lover, Babylon Sisters, Rosanna," latin, or a ballad, clearly. After all, doesn't every1 bring their own individuality to the table? Isn't it really grand to see/hear all the different styles going on out there? If you want Latin, there's Horacio Hernandez & Antonio Sanchez [Pat Metheny] - [both unbelievable!!]; Ignacio Berroa, Garibaldi & Weckl can nail it as well, etc. etc. Jazz - DeJohnette, Elvin, Haynes, Al Foster, etc etc., & on & on. I'm just diggin on another great addition 2 the 'big-picture family' - Virgil Donati.

**FuseU1** · July 28th, 2002, 08:28 PM

Pocket - WELL PUT [your last post]. I agree completely - couldn't have said it better myself - you & I [& a lot of others, I see] are on the same page as far as I can see, basically. Thanx 4 the feedback. Hope no one got TOO offended! I just needed to get it off my chest; sometimes ya run into a lot of strange mindsets around here. [I can't believe how short my reply was this time!!] Best wishes,
fuse

**PocketPlayer** · July 28th, 2002, 09:43 PM

Right on x2 Fuse! Offended...NO WAY. What's offense is watching a gig like Jeff Richman w/Gary Novak and Jimmy Johnson with a room full of people sort of politely clapping between sips of their margaritas and small talk. Where's the passion!?!

It's easy to get too comfortable in LA and become passionless because of all the talent and opportunities to see great live music. I sat next to a 22YO guy from Illinois last night and his excitement was contagious. I loved it! There was no polite clapping stuff- his response was emotional and the music deserved no less last night!

**FuseU1** · July 29th, 2002, 02:27 AM

Ya know, Pocket man, in your 2nd-to-last post [5:03p], you mentioned about the guy that wasn't impressed by Garibaldi w/ Berlin, but was blown away by Donati. And here is the other extreme as to what I had talked about earlier. Isn't this funny? Unfortunately, this seems to be the norm rather than the exception. It seems anymore that it takes more & more [extremism] to impress the younger audience or upcoming musician, but should we just 'chalk it up to being young?' [even tho your guy wasn't that young] There's too much 'shooting for the extreme' these days; in our movies, esp.; TV shows, books/mags, anything 2 do w/ the media; music included. Shock-jocks; reality TV shows, etc. Less attention is payed to the really subtle nuances that, combined w/ the fireworks, makes music totally empassioned. I know what u r talking about w/ Garibaldi; I saw him a few yrs. back w/ Dave Valentine, Lonnie Smith, Mike Stern, Dave Grusin, & Jeff Andrews. With the exception of a few musical moments, he really just played for the music; no real jump-out-and-bite-your-behind drumming [a' la' Donati] there. But, he was still great [& I've heard Dave G. RIP - SMOKIN' the funk-latin-jazz thing]. When that guy you know gets a little older [?!], he will prob. realize what's up. When I was just 2 yrs. into drumming & 1st discover'g jazz [via 70's-80's fusion - I started as a rock drummer, going 'backwards!']], I made a very stupid statement about Stv. Smith to a gtr.ist friend of mine; comparing himm to another rock drummer [who was extremely popular at the time & still is] whom I thought was 'better' than Stv. Turns out [who'dathunkit!], the Stever makes the other guy look like a schoolboy. Not that the other dude isn't happenin 4 what he did; just that the facts remain that he is just simply not the calibre of the Smithenstein. Now, other guys will argue about Stv's time live sometimes, or even his occasional tendencies to 'overplay,' but I really don't care about these trivialities. When I go to see Steve, I go to see him WAIL AND be musical [altho not necessarily in that order!] Allright, already! It seems I can't get away from the long-winded reply!
Peace.

jonthibault · July 29th, 2002, 02:43 AM

Yeah, I saw Virg at the Dragonfly a few months ago. He was playing with a...shall we say mediocre heavy rock band, all unknown players. Everything was in 4/4 and very simple, but Virg just laid it down with rock-solid time and no flashy stuff. In doing so, he completely elevated that band to another level.

A friend of mine brought a younger drummer who didn't think Virgil's playing was happening, and we just kind of laughed...