Moeller

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Originally posted by Derek DeFields:
yes it would affect it, but that's because your brain is telling it to throw the stick down at the wrong time.

You see what I'm saying? It's like saying you have 5 fingers so your time is bad. Good or bad is in YOU, not your fingers, grip, feet. Jeff or Carlos would've had good time with peg legs. As long on your grip is not actually preventing you from playing (and the subtleties we're discussing are far from that) then I maintain that the time/groove is all inside you.

btw, I also believe you can hold the stick loose and keep all fingers on the stick.

<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ January 26, 2004 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Derek DeFields ]</font></font>

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok, I believe that you're correct, but I don't think I fully understand everything you're saying, so forgive me for asking further. [img]smile.gif[/img]

If you're saying holding the stick tighter would affect things and the stick would be thrown down at the wrong time, as in your first sentence, how does that relate to you then going on to say it has nothing to do with grip?
[img]confused.gif[/img]

edit: oh I think I see now. So moeller is just for improving feel, not time?

I should emphasise that I'm talking about time as the occassional beats that come a bit late, that are out of time, not so much timekeeping as regards speeding/dragging. Thats why I was thinking grip would improve that, as opposed to a metronome.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 26, 2004 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>

No, You can use it as a time keeping device. On Weckl's Practice video he uses the "time by motion" concept in which he incorporates the Moeller stroke in the hi hat playing 8th's, quarter notes, triplets, 16th's. I also find myself, not aware of it, playing this way before I saw Weckl's video. And like it's wisely pointed out in the intro-foreword to Chapin's video(by Famularo), you could develop this stuff on your OWN, without even knowing the name of the concept perse. I use it, and have learned to play triplets, 16ths, etc. with one hand at decent tempos. I have found that the finger used as the fulcrum depends greatly on what style of music is being played. Had I not adopted this technique I could have never learned this with the thumb/index style. As it stands now, I switch back and forth during my play depending on what I want. So it's not like i'm saying one is better than the other, I'm simply saying that drumming is an evolution, and you have to start somewhere I guess. But don't restrict yourself to one technique, grip, method or whatever.

It seems the hesitation for most guys is to develop technique or control, as a resource. I realize those concepts are not for everyone but you might want to try it and see if it feels good to you. It sure does to me. [img]graemlins/smarty.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 26, 2004 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Bozzio ]</font>

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Originally posted by Bozzio:
No, You can use it as a time keeping device. On Weckl's Practice video he uses the "time by motion" concept in which he incorporates the Moeller stroke in the high hat playing 8th's, quarter notes, triplets, 16th's.

Again, the hesitation for most guys are how much technique or control you have available, as a resource. I realize those concepts are not for everyone but you might want to try it and see if it feels good to you. It sure does to me. [img]graemlins/smarty.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ January 26, 2004 09:23 PM: Message edited by: Bozzio ]</font></font>

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks bozzio, or may I call you terry? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

That's good news for me, because, I've practised loads with a metronome and everyone tells me I have good time. But I've always hated the 'out of time' strokes I hear that come a millisecond or so later than the other instruments, and I was hoping it was just an adjustment I could make, and the moeller or similar version that I play does seem to help that.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 26, 2004 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>

Bozzio nailed it. Weckl's time by motion thing relates the distance between notes to the motion of the hands and arms and that is directly related to the Moeller method.

The thumb/index fulcrum method is the way I was taught and the method that I used and taught for decades.

At my first lesson with Weckl, he told me that my playing was good, however, the grip caused my playing to be tight, precise and small. We spent 45 minutes just playing one stroke with the Moeller technique. It was one of the toughest 45 minutes of my playing career. There I was, unlearning decades of doing the thumb/index finger fulcrum method. It was frustrating. However, after shedding on this thing for a few years, I don't want to ever go back to the "old way" as Dave puts it. It's not that the thumb/fulcrum grip is wrong. It's just that, from my experience, it's limiting. My playing with the fulcrum between the thumb/index and middle fingers results in a much better sound from the kit, including the high hat (which is way cool) and my speed has significantly increased. After being at the same level of playing for several years, this was a very welcome change!!

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 26, 2004 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Andy Vermiglio ]</font>

Wow andy, you had a lesson with the man himself, that's very, very cool!!

Good to know I'm not the only one that's played for years only to realise that I've not been using a better method till now.

You say it improved your sound, did you also have the same problem with nailing strokes perfectly in time before, and do you also see that difference now? Do you now nail every stroke on the sweetspot so that when you listen back to a recording, you dont cringe like I do when I hear late beats not synched up with the music?

The Moeller meets Gruber meets Weckl meets Chapin method is about improving BOTH & ALL aspects...bettering your technique by constant practice, study, concentration, & analyzing of this/these types of methods will enable you to have better facility, comfortability, & minimal-if-any hindrance to the physics of execution in playing the instrument [which is, to a large degree, technique AND... of which time is of utmost importance...to better get the sound AND ideas that you desire from your head to your limbs...it just comes w listening & learning these principles/"modems," & lots of practice, concentration, & analyzation of yourself, in implementing this/these concepts...there is no shortcut...in order to discover it, you must learn, then practice & play continuously in order to sort things out & aquire the skill. Just lots of practicing of it in order to acquire the feel, touch, & sensitivity...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 27, 2004 12:50 AM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

That all sounds very good to me FuseU1 [img]smile.gif[/img]

Having an inquisitive mind such as yours shows that you are doing & will continue to do well, "Luke Skywalker" [img]wink.gif[/img] ...your tenacity is spot on. Keep it up.

"Good 'luck,'" & keep on drumming [or, "hitting things"] -
[except women, family, true friends, & small fuzzy animals, of course!] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Humbly [img]redface.gif[/img] ,
Fuse

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Originally posted by FuseU1:
Having an inquisitive mind such as yours shows that you are doing & will continue to do well, "Luke Skywalker" [img]wink.gif[/img] ...your tenacity is spot on. Keep it up.

"Good 'luck,'" & keep on drumming [or, "hitting things"] -
[except women, family, true friends, & small fuzzy animals, of course!] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Humbly [img]redface.gif[/img] ,
Fuse

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL! fuse, I like that last bit. Thanks for the encouragement. [img]smile.gif[/img]
After 30 years of playing, in many ways I still feel like I know nothing, as this grip thing proves. I would do anything now to give up work for a year and just practise drums again everyday, but alas, tis not possible any more.

You're right Rudy, I mis-spoke.

Holding it tight sounds bad but won't impact your time IMO. (though it may very well sound bad anyway)

Moeller is the best way for healthy limbs. It does not include an adjusted fulcrum in the traditional teachings however. I do think holding the stick as loose as possible is important for touch.