This is about adjusting my grip and stroke. I was watching the jim chapin clip with dom famularo about moeller. I've always kind of had that whipping motion, but I realised from watching that clp something I've been doing wrong, at least it seems that it's wrong. I should explain my grip. The stick sits in the first groove of my index finger with my thumb opposite to the left, so the stick is pinched in between, with the palm of my hand facing straight down. So that if I take the remaining fingers away, the stick pivots with thumb and index.
However, I haven't been allowing the index finger any freedom. I've been holding onto the stick with thumb and index, but not tightly either. Jim chapin shows how the stick is held from the back of the hand, with the index finger not really holding onto the stick, but moving freely away from it on the downstroke. I've tried this on gigs recently, and it seems to have really improved my time, whereas before, fills could be a little rushed, even tempo didn't seem to sit as relaxed. On my downstroke, I allow the index finger to come away while supporting the stick from the back 3 fingers with the thumb remaining in contact too, and then I catch it back in the first groove of my finger after the stroke. Am I doing this right, and does everyone else do this? Or does anyone else also hold onto the stick? I'm just trying to get the best technique possible so that every single stroke I make is as perfectly in time as possible, which is the hardest damn thing to achieve. I think I have pretty good time overall, but I hate listening to variations in it, which I liken to walking down the line in the middle of a road and sort of drunkenly veering slightly left and right of it, if you see what I mean. Example of before grip: I would go for a crash, or a fill and a crash, and the next snare beat would come in fractionally too early. Now it seems to be much more in time, though I need to record myself to confirm if it is.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 26, 2004 10:56 AM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>
Rudy,
My take on the Moeller method (and there are a number of variations) is that the index finger touches the stick during the stroke. The index finger is used only as a guide and does not wrap around the stick. This is the way Weckl teaches it. Check out his latter videos for a nice demo.
Best,
Andy
So it would seem that the fulcrum is now more between the 2nd finger & thumb, rather than the btwn 1st &...is this the implication
" So it would seem that the fulcrum is now more between the 2nd finger & thumb, rather than the btwn 1st &...is this the implication?"
Exactly... Look at Weckl's video, Steve Smith's DVD, as well as look at Gadd's right hand when he plays.
They all use the thumb and the middle finger as the fulcrum, and the index finger guides it. I emailed Steve Smith about this, and he said that when he grips it like that, the stick is able to resonate, and has better rebound.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hi andy,Originally posted by Andy Vermiglio:
Rudy,
My take on the Moeller method (and there are a number of variations) is that the index finger touches the stick during the stroke. The index finger is used only as a guide and does not wrap around the stick. This is the way Weckl teaches it. Check out his latter videos for a nice demo.
Best,
Andy
Thanks for the reply. I'll have to buy his later vid.
My finger does touch the index finger, and now it's not as wrapped around the index as it used to be. I was just wondering if the stick is meant to stay in contact with the index all the time and completely stay in the crease of my finger, or whether it should be allowed to come off or move away from the crease during the downstroke? When chapin demonstrates in front of the camera he shows the finger moving freely, and says the grip is from the back of the hand, which is where my fulcrum is now. But when he goes to the pad, I can't tell if his index is completely staying with the stick or moving freely.
Just before where he says " its moving in my hand , not imprisoned in my hand" he seems to show the stick moving a little across his index. so, this is the detail I was hoping to be sure of, whether I hold the stick just in the crease of my finger, or let it be free'r and just use the groove as a guide.
Thanks.
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/dr...ro/dom7HQ.html
...& here this is how i played most of my life, until i started hearing/being told to have the fulcrum between the 1st & thumb *sigh*...oh well, as it is now, i pivot between both the 1st & 2nd & thumb, kinda using em both at the same time, or 1 or the other, depending upon what i'm trying to execute.]
I rem Stv Smith [AWA some other "big-leaguers"] actually used to focus on the back fingers for gripping the stick, & letting it flop around at the top fingers [balancing off the thumb [img]eek.gif[/img] ] for rock or uptempo swing....
First off, let me be the first to say that I think your time has little to do with your grip. That's all inside you, not in your technique. (at least IMO)
However, your sound and touch is certainly impacted by your grip.
I personally use the index/thumb grip as I feel it allows for maximum control. I WANT to be able to use all my fingers, particularly the more agile and controllable ones like the index. Trapping or not trapping is about how tight you're holding the stick. You can "guide" the stick using any grip.
If it works for you, it's right.
Derek, I hear what you say, but wouldn't holding the stick correctly affect how the stick is thrown down, which in turn would surely affect the time? If the stick is thrown down by holding it tight instead of looser, wouldn't that affect where the beat is placed, as well as the feel?
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 26, 2004 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>
yes it would affect it, but that's because your brain is telling it to throw the stick down at the wrong time.
You see what I'm saying? It's like saying you have 5 fingers so your time is bad. Good or bad is in YOU, not your fingers, grip, feet. Jeff or Carlos would've had good time with peg legs. As long on your grip is not actually preventing you from playing (and the subtleties we're discussing are far from that) then I maintain that the time/groove is all inside you.
btw, I also believe you can hold the stick loose and keep all fingers on the stick.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 26, 2004 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Derek DeFields ]</font>
I'm really interested in the grip thing too because after all that's a very important part of how we get our sound. You have to make the stick work for you and I think the grip helps to have the stick more balanced than in this others styles of grip I've tried.
Besides the Weckl DVD "How To Develop Technique" and Chapin's "Speed, Power, Control, Endurance", I would recommend Morello's "The Natural Approach To Technique".
Joe Morello's video I mentioned above goes into the natural approach to double stroke rolls using a wrist stroke followed by finger stroke all using the natural rebound of the stick (Gladstone Technique) as opposed to lifting the stick off the surface. Joe also teaches what he calls the forearm throw which is used in instead of the Moeller technique (he does teach the Moeller as well). It is a quick motion where your elbow moves away from your body as the stick is raised. The elbow goes back in and the stick goes down to the head. The power of the stroke in addition to your wrist comes from your elbow, forearm and shoulder. Weckl's video also has a part on "Double Stroke Rolls" where he discusses his "new approach" to double strokes, in which he gets the sound "off" the drums rather than PUSHING down and choking the sticks in other words. The infamous Mr.Gruber(WTF?), has a short segment(clip 6), where he rambles about something i'm sure others are still trying to figure out LOL.
Chapin's video is pretty straight forward on the subject of Moeller and includes a short booklet with exercises(btw if you can't get enuff of THAT, I'd recommend Chafee's "Technique Patterns" and Morello's "Master Studies. Chapin? teaching approach is very concise and easy to understand IMO, there are none of those "cheesy" crappy 80's effects u get from most Warner Videos(Weckl's/Chambers etc). The only setback is that there's only 1 camera angle whereas Weckl has different angles(from top/side-view and so forth). And Dave has nicer hair 2. [img]wink.gif[/img]
YO
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ February 13, 2004 08:34 PM: Message edited by: Bozzio ]</font>
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