Printable View
Freddie Gruber should study with Vinnie. [img]redface.gif[/img]
SS,IMHO, is one of the best impersonators out there. He plays all the hip stuff from other drummers. He does it well. He ain't no slouch, but his playing seems very contrived. Kinda like a greatest hits of everyone else. Another drummer destroyed by the "Trickster Guru" Gruber(anyone read Alan Watts?) [img]graemlins/chat.gif[/img]
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 23, 2004 05:00 AM: Message edited by: FlamTriplet ]</font>
There was a kb player who used to play with Zappa and all the 70's fusion greats, Alan Zavod.
On one of the YCDTOSA discs, Frank mimics Zavod's VOLCANO SOLO, where he starts low and mashes the keys into one huge crescendo.
It is pretty funny. Frank talks about it in the liner notes.
Thats cool, BR. I dug Zavod a lot aft 1st hearing him w Ponty.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL.Quote:
Originally posted by FlamTriplet:
Another drummer destroyed by the "Trickster Guru" Gruber (anyone read Alan Watts?)
Freddie Gruber should study with Vinnie.
I would prob also add, "& even[study] w Weckl." Or even NP, FTM... [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Points well-noted about SS, but still; i thought Vital Info 1 [self-titled], 2 [Orion], Global Beat, Fiafiaga had some pretty fine drumming moments in there. I also dug Vitalive a lot, even tho SS does some overplayg in there [img]wink.gif[/img] . But that doesnt bother me much. I'm not going to over-analyze it too much. I've done plenty of that most my life. ;cP
I also thought Tony MacAlpine's 1st album Edge of Insanity was a cool listen [for an 80s neo-classically influenced rock/"metal shred" album], also w Andy West fr the Dregs. Altho the rock-fusion-style drumg on there may have long since been improved upon by the likes of Virg, it still holds up. & Mac is very melodic in his solos on there, within that genre.
Maybe it's his feel that some guys have in question [besides the 'thought-out' approach to licks & technq]...very diff than say VC, DW, or DC's. But i've heard him play very musical, even if it's as you say - when he's not being self-conscious of posture, posterity, or licks [img]wink.gif[/img] [not my words!]
OK, i do have a special place in the ole [img]graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for the Stever, but i'm outta here b4 i get accused of as taking a cruise on the "SS Fanboy"... [img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Peasche.
------------------------
"Vinnie Roolz, Weckl is da man, Virgil's scary, & Tain for Prez..." - [me, sometime the other day]...
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 23, 2004 02:01 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>
I don’t think it would be in Vinnie’s approach to the drums to go to Freddie (I remember to have read somewhere that Vinnie considers he has somewhat of a "street" approach to playing the drums). Or maybe I don’t want him to be Gruberized; cause, is it just me me (and FT maybe), but I feel it sucked an "edge" out of the playing of guys like Dave, S. Smith and Neil. Maybe they feel better in an "ergonomic" way but a little spark seemed to have disappeared.
Here’s how I perceive Vinnie. I don’t feel like he’s a guy who practices technique anymore (like Weckl or S. Smith). I think he develops himself by playing music. He has big ears and his mind is so creative and fast that he can come up with fresh ideas most of the time. Maybe that’s the secret.
Yes, he did his share of shedding to develop hand/foot technique, interdependance and rhythmitic vocabulary in his development years but I feel he concentrated on playing music afterwards.
Does anybody here intimate with Vinnie could correct me if I’m wrong?
I pretty much agree.
But I think it was the other way around...FT was [half] [img]wink.gif[/img] jesting about "FG should study w Vinnie," AOT the other way around. [img]wink.gif[/img]
Maybe it would "street-out" FG! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
The whole thing w Weckl [as relates to FG] was, he was experiencing muscular, tendon, & BACK/NECK pain/freezes/pulls AARO his approach & his positioning of each the items in the kit. Esp the ride cymbal way up high to the R a la the 80s fusion guys [Vinnie too] - it looks "really cool" for a live audience [visible hand & arm motion] but seems to cause problems w the cental & upper back muscles & neck after long periods of time. Hence the drop in their RCs by VC & DW, for one.
As someone who uses both acou & E drumkits, i can say that the two feel drastically diff, to me anyway. Ddrum being the best of the E's. The mesh & 'hard' cym pads of other E kits seem, like Randy also has said, to "deconstruct" your acou kit technq & 'feel'...going from 1 to the other, i have found this to be somewhat true...when doing this [switching], it seems that when you get back to the acou aft a while on the E's, my body tends at first to automatically physiologically reject using the 'rebound/bounce-back' techjnq that i've "learned" thus far on the acou kit ["programmed myself"], which is so important...i have to consciously force myself to relax & let the stick do it's thing at first coming back to, a la Weckl, etc, for a little while... [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img] It's DEF a 'feel' thing...
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 23, 2004 03:18 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">hahaha.....Good one!Quote:
Freddie Gruber should study with Vinnie.
Re: Freddie...
What initially sparked my interest in the whole Freddie Gruber thing was hearing Steve Smith play "Nutville" on the first "Burning for Buddy" disc. I thought that was an absolutely inspired performance, so I figured there must be something to this "secret Gruber technique." I thought that was the key to being able to groove like Steve Gadd and have the physical freedom of Buddy Rich.
I think the "old" Steve Smith and Dave Weckl were much more expressive, but they seemed to have "good days" and "bad days," meaning that sometimes they sounded like they were trying "too" hard to "force" things to happen. Nowadays, they don't ever seem to have those bad days...they are always "letting" things happen naturally...so that's the upside of their studies with Freddie. On the other hand, they seem to be completely focused on technique, rather than expressing themselves, which IMHO, sort of prevents them from having those over-the-top expressive performances.
I agree the new SS sounds like he's just cycling through a small bag of tricks. However, if you check out the Vital Info discs "Fiafiaga," "Easier Done than Said," and "Ray of Hope," you'll hear a much more expressive Steve...much more depth of ideas, and less emphasis on the "speed-swinging" chops.
I think Dennis Chambers said it best..."If people would just play what's in their heart, we wouldn't need teachers like Freddie Gruber." (or "Grupert," as he says)
Re: Vinnie: To Gruber or Not To Gruber...
In that clinic bootleg, he mentions at the beginning that his technique is centered around accents and rebounds and that he uses a lot of wrist in his playing because he thinks that gives you a smoother sound. He also said something about "embracing the rebound."
So, what he's saying is basically consistent with what Freddie teaches, but Vinnie's interpretation of that "style" seems to have turned out much differently than Smith's or Weckl's.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 23, 2004 03:21 PM: Message edited by: mja61 ]</font>
Good post.
Except:<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Weckl doesnt fall into this category [img]wink.gif[/img] JMHOQuote:
On the other hand, they seem to be completely focused on technique, rather than expressing themselves, which IMHO, sort of prevents them from having those over-the-top expressive performances.
Am I saying he's beyond it, necessarily?
No...er, whoops - i meant, YES. Emphatically. [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]
... but I need my bag of tricks...
There was a time whenever I listened to gadd, that he always seemed to come up with something new, just when I thought I'd heard everything.
Of course he repeats licks, BUT, always does something to make it sound fresh or different. It's repetition though that characterises each drummer and gives them their identity. We all recognise certain drummers just from the way they play or a lick they do. Certainly, the most important thing to me is, if a drummer is repeating licks and tricks for technical sake only, that can get dull. If, like steve gadd or vinnie, they make it musical, or it has some groove or time to it, then, even with repeats, it'll still move me.