can we ever know anything immediately?

[state_vector]

No, sap, it is the church guard.

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[Devil's Advocate]

Ah Kant - he's my kind of guy! Try his Critique of Pure Reason, it will have you in stitches!!

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[SHATOUSHKA]

OMG! now i understand the whole church guard thing.

how funny! (yet so correct)

yes, perhaps i shouldn't have included it--but i was sampling the air.

er...nevermind that, i hate talking metaphorically.

and no...the quote is not kant.
as a side note, i really like kant. although i think he is crazy to have the thoughts he did and STILL dignify it in documents.

damn it, i did it again.

metaphor is a hard habit to break.

it is my pretention that kant was not a hyprocrite.
but then again, i am sure (and interested?) in someone arguing it otherwise.

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General Philosophy

[Sapius]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by erisesoteric:
Sapius... not arguing, exactly... I'm just looking for a bit of clarrification. You seem (I could be wrong) to be resisting the defininitions of life, the universe, and everything that religion offers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no problem in arguing, but one should not argue just for the sake of it. I see that you are really interested, and I'm glad to explain. I myself have come to a certain understanding only after "arguing" with Theologians and Thinkers, and both of them call me "blasphemous" according to their own understandings of the Universe. Yes, all that was said by some people who were considered "enlightened", is not totally wrong, but is basically to be understood beyond the "words" they use. It is NOT very easy to explain a metaphysical experience in plain language, and so those parables and worldly analogies have been used by them to explain what they have Understood/Felt. Most of what was said on metaphysical matters is basically misunderstood. I do not blame Humanity for that misunderstanding though, for there is reason for the lack of plain explanation, and thereby a lack of understanding.

Human nature is basically governed by Nature, you can call that "God" if you like, but, although you might find some mystical touch in what I say, it has basically nothing to do with any rituals associated with it. And there is NO "GOD" that reacts or "thinks" or intricately "plans" anything. The plan or "design" as seen by theologians as an act of "God", in no more than an INHERENT quality of Nature itself.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This is cool, as far as it goes, but then in the same post, you offer us an anthropomorphic nature... Nature with a will, and a mind, and a purpose.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, this is the difficult part that the "enlightened" couldn't explain very well, but it will not be long when most of Humanity will understand on their own. (Say in a couple of thousands of generations)

Let me try any way.

When we say "WILL" "MIND" "PURPOSE", we attribute it to "our selves". Most thinkers say that "we" see things and give values, name and purposes, but I say, that the "MIND" which "they" use, to create languages, ideas, values, purposes, is not "their Mind" at all. It is just a product of Nature, and so all those values or purposes, are but a natural driving force of Nature that reflects through "our" Minds.

Nature by itself is helpless on its own to Realize its own creation, it cannot experience anything unless it goes thgough a Cycle of "creation", and on the scale of Universal Evolution, reaches a certain point where it has inevetably "created" a kind of a "thing" (Logically Thinking Humans) to Experience All THEAT THERE IS!

This does not mean that "Nature" is some kind of a "thinking" entity, but all our "MINDS" put together act as receptors to Nature. In that, each LOGICAL MIND experiences a part, and Nature Experiences it as a WHOLE.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>....but isn't this just replacing one personification with another? You seem to still be calling for some over mind to be ruling over us all... you've just changed the names a bit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NO! Not at all! There is NO ONE GREAT MIND "RULING" over anything, it is all but INHERENT LAWS that are just doing what they have to Inherently do, no instructions are needed, especially by anyone sitting in "Heaven", or any place out side of Universe. In fact, we are the "MINDS" of ?God?, which many enlightened people have tried to express:

Hindus = "we" are GODS, we see GOD in EVERTHING around us. What does that mean?

Christians = we are made in GOD'S IMAGE! Now what does this Actually Mean? I say yes, we Are made in the "IMAGE" of "God", and that is the MIND, which is Nature, and thereby kinda "God". And this "Mind" ws not put in us by any "GOD", as in "breathing" the breath of Life into Adam, but it is an inevitable Reality that HAS to become through Cause & Effect, which is an Infinite cycle of Self-Make and Self-Destroy.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Of course, this could just be a difference in how we percieve nature and the world... you see Nature, I see nature. You see a careful mind controlling us, I see a blind idiot god crashing through the world. You say tomato, I say toMAHto. (acutally I don't say toMAHto, just WORK with me here!).

Just curious, that's all.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is NO MIND "controlling" "us", "WE" are this GREAT MIND itself, and at the same time, it all belongs to Nature, for we are NOTHING on our own, but TOOLS of Nature.

I understand that you might see ?contradictions?, but you need time to grasp the Reality of Nature on your own, through your OWN logical understanding, no one can simply ?explain? it to you, all that you can get are bits of information?s scattered all over Nature, and deep into what some ?enlightened? Minds have tried to say in the past. I cannot say all my understanding at once, but keep on asking questions and I will try to tackle it.

You know what, this is not an easy thing to explain in one post, there are so many things interconnected that need to be understood about the ?Mind? and its nature, that unless you don't understand each part of it, you cannot get the big picture, and the fact that my English being not so good, I might not be able to expalin, but let me get back on this with a more coherent post. May be I will start a new thread.

Be patient until then. Remember, even Nature in not in a hurry, it lives by multi-billion of our years.



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....just IMHO though.

[SHATOUSHKA]

god loves kant.

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General Philosophy