NO COMMENT

**SHATOUSHKA** · September 12th, 2001, 02:16 AM

here is an additional $0.02...which, after the gas increases, i will no longer be financially able to donate to this charity. wink

america mass produces arms. america sells those arms. those that buy the arms, sell the arms to those we do not sell to.

america is partly responsible.

i agree mostly with eris.

but in my own opinion, i do/did not feel an overwhelming sense of patriotism today.

this ripple started at the first spit in the ocean....

i refuse that this particular thread be a playground for political argumentation.
this can be done on a newer thread.
lets keep this thread for those 'other' reasons. please.
--------------------------------------------

i find it equally (disturbing) interesting that we were once contemplating the value of a human life on another thread.

i will go no further with that statement...as much as i am tempted to.
--------------------------------------------

i came home tonight after donating blood.
i donated my blood to offer the suffering a chance.
this suffereing may or may not occur in new york city, washington d.c., or BFE. it occurs here too.

i was prompted in remembering suffering--in general.

the events of today may have caused catastrophic pains that cannot be quenched by blood. then again, metaphorically speaking, blood is the redemption.

it is a deep tragedy. so is a 8 year old boy spending his childhood in a hospital, dying of cancer.
---------------------------------------------

after returning, i noticed the stars.
this is not a rare occurance for me, though tonight seemed indescribingly different.
---------------------------------------------

we are finite.

------------------
General Philosophy

**MKFaizi** · September 12th, 2001, 04:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Okay, not to say this but... warfare is different the terrorist acts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no difference between warfare and terrorism for those who suffer the devastation.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The bombing of Iraq was provoked by Iraqie people.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it was not. Most Iraqi soldiers were not interested in fighting a war against Americans. If you have read anything of the Gulf War, you must have read of the thousands of Iraqi soldiers who quickly surrendered to our ground troops. Except for Saddam's elite troops, the Iraqi soldiers were forced to fight.

The Gulf War was the result of Iraq attacking Kuwait. Because Kuwait is a very rich Arab state with a lot of monetary interests in the United States, the United States retaliated.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>That was years ago. *I realize that changes very little I'm sure, yada yada*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was only about twelve years ago. It is also true that the United States has bombed Iraq since the Gulf War.

I do not mean to be offensive but, if you are going to assert something, it may be advisable for you to offer something other than "yada yada yada."

I do not mean to imply, in any way, of course, that either you or any other member of this forum ever writes anything that is not intellectually enlightening or philosophically important.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>However, you cannot call what happened today retaliation for the bombings they brought on themselves years ago.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I can. If you want, I can produce for you exact specifications of the ordinance that has been dropped on Iraq by the United States.

I will not do that, however, without permission because it is likely that what I post will be deleted.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>That's like totally ignoring the fact that they started this mess. They threw the first blow, we mearly retaliated as we saw fit. As we will do now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not writing to defend the people who committed the acts today nor to defend Iraq. I am merely saying that it is prudent to take a look at ourselves; our actions.

If you want to fully understand this, there is a lot of reading material available.

The American people are stupid to believe that their government is not capable of the same terrorism that we witnessed today.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If your gonna look at injustice, let's not forget all the other minorities that have had injustice done to them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am concerned here with the tragedy at hand.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It sounds to me like just because you are who you are, you are almost making excuses...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I made it clear that I see tragedy on all sides and wrong on all sides. The only thing that I have asked is that we may take a look at ourselves; that the west make an effort to understand the east and to learn the facts of what we have done to hurt as well as the hurt that has been done to us.

I am not sure what you mean when you say that I may be making excuses because of who I am.

I am an American. But I am an American who has experienced life on the other side. I am in the unfortunate position of knowing both truths. If I was living in Pakistan, I would be trying to persuade Pakistanis of understanding the American position.

I am in the United States and I am speaking to Americans who are ignorant of the how we are seen by much of the world.

Forgive me. I do not mean to sound arrogant.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>All this is besides the point. Fact of the matter is, people murdered people.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

People did not, of course, murder people during the Gulf War. That was a picnic.

I hate to be arrogant or anything -- and that is not my intent -- but it astonishes me that people such as yourself cannot understand why this has happened.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Why murder you say? Because they knowingly steered planes into buildings they knew would be FULL of people. KNOWINGLY, I believe that that then makes it murder. a MASS murder.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The United States knowingly dropped huge bombs on Iraq in places where it was well known that large numbers of people, including children, would be. We referred to the innocent victims as collateral damage.

I am sure that you mean well. But I advise you to read and to speak to other people so that you can more fully understand. You don't now understand. You are hearing only the one side.

My daughter just saw a picture of bin Laden and asked if he was her uncle.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>*nods*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I fail to understand the implication of this gesture.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>We don't know yet if it was foriegners, many just assume.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that it must be plain now that the work of Tim McVeigh was quite an amateur production. He tried to tell us that.

This was the work of a group with connections. There is no domestic group in America capable of pulling this sort of thing off so successfully. I also fully doubt that four or more Americans could be gotten together to agree to die in the attack.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>All I know is, those guilty, must be punished.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How would you punish them? The ones who hijacked the planes are dead.

Would you punish by killing more innocent people?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And about my Hitler comment, it was in no way meant to be taken as a serious comment. It was mearly something stupid thrown out there...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are many people with Islamic names who are now being threatened. I have lived through this sort of thing before. I have had friends who were beaten severely because they looked like Arabs. My husband (now deceased) was stopped and questioned by the Secret Service on suspicion of wanting to assassinate Bush, the Elder.

I take remarks about Hitler killing the wrong people quite seriously whether or not they are intended as serious. I am also of Jewish lineage.

Thanks for your remarks.

Faizi

------------------

**pplaverita** · September 12th, 2001, 05:49 AM

MK, I would appreciate that you be brief; let's say, this thread is like a book of sympathy, where everyone may sign expressing their condolences. Arguing and explaining and trying to tell the victims from the victimizers should not be our first (if at all) concern.

------------------
Never onlyne

**MKFaizi** · September 12th, 2001, 02:04 PM

I had not realized that this was a book of sympathy and condolences. If that is the case, please delete all that I have written.

I was mistaken in my notion that this is a discussion list.

Faizi

------------------

**SHATOUSHKA** · September 12th, 2001, 02:19 PM

this thread is for those who want to express their impressions of the situations of NYC and D.C.

because i see that this is getting into a tangent of politics, a new thread will be started since no other initiative has been made.

if anyone feels it necessary, they can delete their own posts. but no more about 'who did what when' will be heard on this thread.

thank you.

------------------
General Philosophy

**Devil's Advocate** · September 12th, 2001, 02:20 PM

My mid morning yesterday found myself running through the streets of Cleveland as sirens began to blare - trying to get to my car. A crazed citizen flew through the crowds of people evacuated from their buildings just moments earlier yelling, "They've bombed Pittsburgh, there is a plane headed towards Cleveland."

As it turns out, the plane that went down outside of Pittsburgh actually made it's U-Turn over Cleveland airspace.

My thoughts moving forward from this experience are still foggy. But I thought I would share the experience. I feel like a fool for being as scared as I was seeing that I was not in one of the 2 major cities targeted yesterday - I could not imagine what those individuals & families are feeling right now. However, I think we can all learn something from this wake-up call. I am 25. My generation (with exception to those who have served in the U.S. Military) has yet to experience such a wake-up call. It is disheartening and quite frankly beyond words.

I will not assert my political beliefs at this point. But I will say, I was, am & will be - Proud to be an American.

(My edit was for spelling purposes)
------------------

[This message has been edited by Devil's Advocate (edited September 12, 2001).]

**MKFaizi** · September 12th, 2001, 03:02 PM

Then, if such is your wish, I will post no more on the subject or any subject.

I am not speaking of politics. I am voicing human concerns.

Iraqis and Pakistanis and Afghanis are humans as well as are Americans.

We have overlooked what we have done but are examining under a microscope what has been done to us.

Faizi

------------------

Thread: NO COMMENT

Thread Tools

Display

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions