which came first--the chicken or the egg?

[SHATOUSHKA]

your thoughts on terrorism and those you feel accountable in yesterdays acts.
shit--why stop there...lets bring up everything back to the conquering of egypt...i mean, it all applies--doesn't it?????

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General Philosophy

[kilzok7]

It seems odd to me that on the other thread no one thought to mention the greatest acts of mass murder perpetrated by the United States, the dropping of two atomic bombs over Japan to end WWII. In these instances, entire cities of people who's only crime was being Japanese were obliterated.

I mention this only to point out that America is indeed not perfect. We have committed henious acts over the centuries. Why? Our excuse was, "They started it."

In the past day, I've reached a conclusion about the difference between an "excuse" and a "reason". The people who commit terrorist acts can have many excuses, but in the end, excuses don't matter.

What is the reason for terrorism? What is the reason for hate?

As far as I'm concerned, there can be none.

Every person is faced with a decision at every instant of every day: one can choose either to hate, or to love. It is that simple- everything else is an excuse.

[SHATOUSHKA]

good point, kilzok.
i, too, thought of hiroshima.
i'll never forget reading about the carnage of that particular disaster.
one reporter claimed to have seen a woman clutching her infant...and when he went over to her, she immediately disentegrated...being made of nothing more than ash.
whether this was factual or no, i still have the image in my head. there is no other word for it than: gruesome.
---------------------------------------------

yesterday my professor made an interesting comment on the topic of fighting (war) on religious rite, no doubt anyone here may agree (or disagree).
he said,
'war isn't a necessary (provocation, action) excuse for religion. religion is an excuse for war.'

aside from that, as i said earlier (other thread), what happened yesterday started years ago...perhaps eons. (am i being sarcastic here? i dunno.)



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General Philosophy

[kilzok7]

What happened yesterday (like fiction) started with consciousness.

[SHATOUSHKA]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
originally posted by: Devil's Advocate

My mid morning yesterday found myself running through the streets of Cleveland as sirens began to blare - trying to get to my car. A crazed citizen flew through the crowds of people evacuated from their buildings just moments earlier yelling, "They've bombed Pittsburgh, there is a plane headed towards Cleveland."

As it turns out, the plane that went down outside of Pittsburgh actually made it's U-Turn over Cleveland airspace.

My thoughts moving forward from this experience are still foggy. But I thought I would share the experience. I feel like a fool for being as scared as I was seeing that I was not in one of the 2 major cities targeted yesterday - I could not imagine what those individuals & families are feeling right now. However, I think we can all learn something from this wake-up call. I am 25. My generation (with exception to those who have served in the U.S. Military) has yet to experience such a wake-up call. It is disheartening and quite frankly beyond words.

I will not assert my political beliefs at this point. But I will say, I was, am & will be - Proud to be an American.

(My edit was for spelling purposes)
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[This message has been edited by Devil's Advocate (edited September 12, 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


da--your fear was not foolish. at least, i don't think so.


btw--you don't have to say why you edited your own post. i have seen that on other forums and i think its because somethings that may be pertinent or 'seen' could be edited.
don't worry about it.
of course, i shouldn't either. if you wanna say why you do so...thats ok, too.
just felt obligated to say something.

i am curious what your thoughts are on the situation and your above statement of 'being proud to be american'.
i can already sense that my comments here are a direct reflection to the fact that i just listened to bush's speech on cnn.com.

i am not pleased by it.

but that is another thing.

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General Philosophy

[Devil's Advocate]

I am doing my best to keep up with the news - but I am at work today and don't have easy access to TV's or radios. I can comment more on the President Bush once I figure out what he said. Rumor around here though says we might be at war by tomorrow morning...

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[Devil's Advocate]

I still don't have all the details. But I am guessing that the disturbing part of Bush's press conference was his reference to good verses evil. Is that what this is? Is this the U.S. looking to roll up it's sleeves and flex it's strong arm yet again? Is this solely about revenge? Is this about protection and thwarting any further efforts? Is this really good verses evil?

It is probably all of the above. And I am saddened to say that a U.S. retaliation will probably be the only way the country as a whole can regain it's confidence again - regardless of the motivation. What made me feel confident was the lockdown on airports, was knowing that my ID would be checked on the way to work, was knowing that my family was okay, was knowing that the borders were cut off and we were finally looking inward at ourselves as a country and taking care of a problem as a family does. But is all this too "inconvenient" for Americans? Would we prefer to retaliate because we are looking for confidence or because we are looking to thwart efforts so we will not have to be "inconvenienced" with security?

But back to good verses evil. Is all murder, whether in wartime or not, evil? Is it ever justified? In times of war people forget about human beings. I spoke with someone yesterday who made the most horrific comment to me - one that he must have first heard in Vietnam. "Just remember, when you are at war, the enemy is not considered human."

My GOD! Is that what we have really come to?

I am torn. I am torn between nationalism, the need to show ourselves as strong and invincible. The need to physically show that freedom is stronger than tyranny. The need to punish those that have done wrong. The need to make an example of those that have done wrong.

BUT... what have we learned by the events of yesterday then? Suddenly we know what it feels like to be the one's standing next to the building which was just blown away by a distant enemy. Suddenly we know what it is like to lose loved-ones to a cause outside of our every day existence. Suddenly we know what it is like for the people in the Middle East consumed in war every day.

Correction - we still do not know any of that - we have only seen a pin-head glimpse.

I am speaking in circles - but that is how my head is working right now. It is difficult to assimilate everything that has happened and the consequences of moving forward. Another thought to keep in mind - we are not a Middle East country. The people killed in 3 buildings and 4 aircraft yesterday are enough people to completely populate an entire small Middle East country. They do not have the targets we have - they do not have the congested population we have. So how does this fact change things?

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[This message has been edited by Devil's Advocate (edited September 12, 2001).]

[SHATOUSHKA]

*..............sigh..............*


that is all i can do.
DA's post is nothing i haven't thought of before.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"Just remember, when you are at war, the enemy is not considered human."

My GOD! Is that what we have really come to?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i don't see how this is such a surprise. the saddest thing is defining 'war' in that statement. is it really war? i have no doubt that the quote is meant to be taken in context.
however, war is also:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> driving in your car
<LI> getting a busy signal
<LI> waiting in line
<LI> crowded elevators
<LI> parking (spaces)
<LI> making grades
<LI> working for a raise[/list]

etc, etc, etc.

i saw/heard the bush speech on cnn.com and was horrified. actually, i will admit it may have been just my impression.
bush mentioned america being a 'beacon of freedom' as if we were the only country that understood what 'freedom' means. he went on to say that no one will replace us as that beacon. (damned, someone get me a quote here)

i found this to absolutely arrogant.
i am not saying that being a nationalist is...er...terrible. but i think that arrogancy is (to an extreme extent).
nothing personal but...
saying 'god bless america' is limited when it comes to certain 'freedoms'. i was astounded. there is a subtle hint here.

there is nothing wrong with standing up and/or defending what you agree with.

i just think that for the few minutes that he spoke, some sort of rational thinking should have gone into it.

but what the hell am i saying?


oh yeah.........

another good post by kilz.
keep 'em coming.



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General Philosophy

[MKFaizi]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Suddenly we know what it is like for the people in the Middle East consumed in war every day.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is an important point.

I have already made my comments along this line in the "No Comment" topic.

However, I urge anyone who cares about peace in the world to read further on US policy in the Mideast. I urge you to read about US action in Iraq -- both during and after the Gulf War.

It is very important to understand all causes and know all sides here.

The action that was taken yesterday had tragic results and I could never condone it -- either in the US or anywhere.

It is not enough just to blame and retaliate. Some national introspection is in order.

As an aside, I must say that I look for the United States to bomb Afghanistan to kingdom come.

If Pakistan is not compliant in helping the US accomplish that purpose, I think that it is also possible that the US will bomb Pakistan. Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates are the only Muslim states that have supported the Taliban government that gives refuge to bin Laden.

If Pakistan is bombed, then, my relatives in Lahore and Faisalabad and Islamabad will suffer.

This is no more than a personal concern, of course, but it is interesting how the earth is quite small.

If the United States is the only superpower, I think that it is important for us to realize how we effect things. We cannot continue in such a jingoistic and isolationist fashion.

Faizi

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[MKFaizi]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Every person is faced with a decision at every instant of every day: one can choose either to hate, or to love. It is that simple- everything else is an excuse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I basically agree with this.

However, how is it an act of love to ignore and to remain ignorant?

Faizi


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