which came first--the chicken or the egg?

[MKFaizi]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>your thoughts on terrorism and those you feel accountable in yesterdays acts. shit--why stop there...lets bring up everything back to the conquering of egypt...i mean, it all applies--doesn't it?????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I do not think that all ancient events in history apply here.

I do think that US policy in the Middle East and Asia apply.

Faizi


------------------

[SHATOUSHKA]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>No, I do not think that all ancient events in history apply here.

I do think that US policy in the Middle East and Asia apply.

Faizi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and what caused the US policy?

and what caused that?

and what caused that?

and what caused that?

and that?

and that?

and that?

and that?

and that?

etc etc etc etc



------------------
General Philosophy

[MKFaizi]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I spoke with someone yesterday who made the most horrific comment to me - one that he must have first heard in Vietnam. "Just remember, when you are at war, the enemy is not considered human."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is surprising to me that you have never heard these words before. This is something very basic that is taught to all soldiers.

Armies teach people to kill; train them to kill. This is true of the US army as it is true of all armies. It is not merely something that was peculiar to Viet Nam.

One of the hardest realizations for the ground infantry soldier is the realization that he is killing human beings. For many, this realization comes as a profound shock and a shock from which some never recover.

Armies lie. Armies are in the business of lying. Perpetuating the lie is the primary purpose of armies. Armies lie so that young men may fight and die.

The remark that you heard is nothing unusual. It is one of the tenets of military basic training. It is something that is beaten into every soldier with every push up; with every forced march; every wake up call. You are a lean, mean killing machine.

I think that some reading and understanding of war and of soldiering may be a good read for you. I strongly suggest reading some literature about the Gulf War. Then, you may begin to fathom the reason for your acquaintance's remark.

We need to wake up. We need to know what is going on beyond our front stoops.

Humans killing humans is senseless. There is no reason for it. All reasons for murder are invented delusions.

What we are undergoing here in the United States is the perpetuation and spread of a huge delusion of good and evil.

We need to look and to think and to be aware.

Faizi

------------------

[MKFaizi]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>and what caused the US policy?

and what caused that?

and what caused that?

and what caused that?

and that?

and that?

and that?

and that?

and that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


We need to look at events and policy within the past twenty to fifty years.

We need to look at and question the meaning of our presence in the Middle East; our interests; Kuwait's monetary interests in this country; how much power is wielded by those interests; how much control by might we exert in the Middle East and Asia and for what reasons or interests.

Faizi

------------------

[MKFaizi]

I am trying to post something here but cannot get through.

Am I silenced?

Faizi

------------------

[zelazny]

maybe my comment here is offtopic to a certain extent but i'd like to get it of my chest anyhow.

At this moment i am very afraid of what the result of the US will be. After the statment bush made about the harboring of terrorists i get the idea that he's almost ready to invade afganistan just to get osama bin laden.. even though no-one is sure that it is him yet! the bad part however is that the entire NATO has acknowledged that they will help defend the US according to NATO charter.
That means that if there is an attack in the middle east region that about the whole western world will be ganging up on the middle east. I can just see that country declaring jihad and all the other islamic countries joining up in that jihad.
I just get the feeling that this could end up in a big, bloody, useless war whose only purpose was to get even with one or a few people who are responsible for the terrorist attack.

------------------
Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.

[SHATOUSHKA]

i don't think it works that way, zela. the US just can't raise its sword and yell 'CHARGE' and invade anything with NATO.

well, it could...

i was just reading some stuff (arranged crap?) on cnn.com and it is showing (simplifying?) the motions the US would have to take to do so. first it would have to get adequate evidence, then present it to NATO, then ask NATO and particular countries for help, including what particular help it requires.
i dunno.
it all sounds good on paper....

--------------------------------------------

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am trying to post something here but cannot get through.
Am I silenced?

Faizi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

don't even try it.
before making irrational statements, try exiting the system and count how many times you posted my post...i count 6.
unless, thats your point.

if you are being silenced (which i doubt) i am sure it is for a good reason (although i will contend that you have been checking yourself nicely).

if you are being silenced, it isn't by me.
--------------------------------------------

oh...and one more thing:

i can (possibly) accept the idea that a person can be deluded into joining an area of the armed forces thinking they are doing their duty. ('born on the fourth of july' is a good example)
but when it comes down to it, when you join, you have no doubt that you agree with your country and its decisions while taking up arms against anything else.
i'll admit a certain extent to manipulating on behalf of the armed forces...to brainwashing. but not everyone is included in that.
you have to see the target enemy as inhuman for the reasons faizi disclosed.
(here's the trickey part--)
the 'problem' lies with morality.
--------------------------------------------

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We need to wake up. We need to know what is going on beyond our front stoops.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

armies lie. the government lies. essentially, we all lie.
the virus is deeper than that.
we will be informed on what we need to be told. nothing more.
i hate to shout 'government conspiracy!' here but i think i will...to a degree.
1984 says it all.
---------------------------------------------

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Humans killing humans is senseless. There is no reason for it. All reasons for murder are invented delusions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i do not agree with this statement.








------------------
General Philosophy

[Hannibal]

Here's a little for what it's worth on my take of the situation. I don't really care, any way. I'm not gonna think about what it must be like to be those poor people that did it, and be like "we can't retaliate! that's murder!" but i'm not gonna be like "LET"S KILL EM ALL!", so this whole thing leads people in circles, which is the reason we have people chosen to lead, those who break the circle, and pick a way to be, right or wrong.

the US has already talked to the other superpowers, China, Russia, Germany, etc.. and they have all said that they agree, that this was an act of war, and they will back us with whatever needs to be done. So if we wanna go get Bin Laden, they're gonna back us.

I commend the US for at least getting their ducks in a row before making any moves.

I am sick of hearing so much negativity. We live here, and are free to think how we want. We are free to have negativity. Let us not forget that...

Like I said, this is one of those issues you can beat to death either way, and create hours worth of arguments in any direction or cause.

I am a US citizen. I am happy about this.
I am a world citizen, this I am also happy about.
I am alive. This pleases me.

------------------

[pplaverita]

Fear and sorrow mingles with doubts. The dead and the dying is the unquestionable evidence of the atrocities committed the day before yesterday; yet, I fear that retaliations will only serve as an act of cheap populism. The hijackers, the actual perpetrators, are dead now. Any other speculation on who's behind them, which government supported them, is dangerous.
Article 4 of the Washington Treaty provides for NATO Alliance consultations in the case of threats to a member's territorial integrity, political independence, or security. The Article 5, the heart of the Treaty, declares that "The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them...shall be considered an attack against them all" and that each ally will assist those attacked by "such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force."
A 'member's security' has been threatened. An 'armed attack' was committed. But who by? Who is the enemy? With US having such a vast armory, it seems of no importance who the enemy is. It rather seems like a chance for global payoffs.

Don't 'Wag the dog'.

[This message has been edited by pplaverita (edited September 13, 2001).]

[Devil's Advocate]

I have heard the comment "in war the enemy is not considered human" in reference many times before. I completely understand the concept and where/why people involved in war assert such a comment. No war would be the same without such an assertion.

I think that for the first time I actually had an emotional reaction to it - that was most likely my point above - though I know I did not express it well. I've had numerous discussions about wars and wartime behavior. But those killed in the Trade Center were innocents. Suddenly, "the enemy is not human" hits home, and not just in text books.

A bit off the subject: MK's comment suggesting I need to do some reading is accepted & taken with a grain of salt. If you'll remember MK, someone on your other forum suggested you do the same and you took it as a personal attack - or at least it seemed that way to me since you asked him if he was a misogynist and suggested he not insult you for fear of making himself look like an idiot - or something along those lines. I do not take your suggestion personally and thank you for your comments.

------------------