to an unknown god

[marturios]

Some are concerned with what god is, rather than who god is. Others are concerned about their personalized deities. And as I stated previously many simply do not like god.

Hannibal contends that many people do like god. But my point is that many people do not like the God revealed in the sacred writings contained in the Bible. The God who is personal and infinite. Rather they prefer to create their own gods.

Creating gods is not a novel exercise of human imagination or intelligence. Humankind has been creating its own gods from early history til now. We call this idolatry. Ultimately idolatry is not the worship of a thing, an icon or other images; it is the worship of human intelligence.

Creating gods in the image of self is the enterprise of a person adrift in the universe. We consider it an exchange, trading of truth for a lie, trading the Creator for created things. As human beings we know innately that God exists and we are not gods. The problem is that we do not like the God who is there so we imagine our own gods to suit our tastes and preferences. Such gods are no gods at all.

You may declare that god is impersonal like a particle of energy or relative to self but such a god is lifeless, a dead idol, a figment of human imagination.

Again the true and living God has revealed himself to us in at least four ways...Want to see how?
intuitivel



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[SHATOUSHKA]

maturios--

i am interested in hearing about 'these 4 ways'.
please, post.

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~~share some greased tea with me~~
General Philosophy

[marturios]

Shatoushka--Thanks for the interest. Whether you agree or not I want you to know I appreciate your willingness to at least hear me out on this matter. I appreciate your kind and generous spirit.

I have asserted that God reveals himself to humanity in at least four ways. The Light of God's revelation grows in intensity as we move from first to fourth. It gets brighter and clearer.

1. The Light of Creation: God reveals himself to us through the creation. God's invisible qualities such as his eternal power and divine nature may be known by humanity because God made it plain to us. We can understood who God is from what he has made. The visible creation is a pathway to the invisible Creator.

2. The Light of Conscience: God reveals himself to humanity through an innate moral law we call conscience--sometimes it accuses us, sometimes it defends us. Like a moral compass it tells where we are going whether good or bad.

3. The Light of Canon Scripture: God reveals himself to humanity through the canon of Scripture. The sacred writings enable us to know and understand the truth about God. They set boundaries and make us concious of sin.

4. The Light of Christ Jesus: God reveals himself to humanity through the person of Jesus Christ. He makes known the grace and truth of God. God presented Jesus as a sacrifice for our sins to show his justice and mercy.

Can anyone guess what we (myself included!)have done with the Light of God's self-revelation? The answer to that is our fundamental problem.

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[SHATOUSHKA]

hey, maturios--
you know you can post here just like anyone else.
now, i have some things i would like to say about your '4 ways'...however, due to the fact that i am fully aware of they type of argument i would be getting myself into, i shall refrain from that.
so, instead, i am gonna say--briefly--what i think.

1) the light of creation:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> i have brought this subject up over on the religion category. in the forum 'the truth according to everyone' (great forum, btw). i have posted a new topic concerning creationism vs. evolution. i have yet to post my feelings on the subject, but the posts that are currently 'evolving' (hahahah) are quite interesting. maturious, i think you have been there before, but for everyone else here, i encourage you to go and check it out. be sure to iron your straight-jackets before entering. [/list]
2) the light of consciousness:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>first of all, this 'way' is similar to may concept of things...though 'god' is not necessarily 'God'. ahem.
<LI>i am no sure i agree with an innate moral law (especially through consciousness)...somehow, it casts a shadow over eternal judgment. (this is just my opinion)[/list]

the final two i choose not to refer to. maybe i will if time gives me the strength to...but again, i am relying on my good (conscious) judgment to prevent me from doing so.



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~~share some greased tea with me~~
General Philosophy

[zelazny]

2)
well, as far as morals go, they change per society and are (in my eyes) not a fixed structure but a series of rules that evolved in that society instead of being based on 'divine' rules. (even though many claim to be)

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Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.

[marturios]

Shatoushka-sometimes you make me smile.

Just one smallish thing...I referred to the light of conscience, not conciousness. No doubt we are each concious (mentally alert) but conscience refers to moral awareness.

Peace. Now, according to the christian world-picture, our fundamental problem as human beings is that we have exchanged, traded, bartered away the light God has given us for darkness.
* Creation points us to the Creator but we exchanged his truth, glory and wisdom for junk. We devote ourselves to created things of all shapes and sizes.
* Conscience points us toward the right and good, but we have seared our consciences so we will not feel guilty about wrong things we do. We silence the inner voice so we can do whatever we want, when we want. We prefer radical autonomy and moral relativism to God's light.
* Canon Scripture reveals the will of God clearly but the boundaries that liberate are perceived as binding so we cast off the yoke in favor of human wisdom and experience. Are we wiser and stronger than our Creator?
* Christ Jesus reveals the way, the truth and the life to us in the graphic imagery of a life well-lived. Yet many reject the love of God displayed in him.

Unashamedly, I pray and hope that all would become christians. At least give Jesus a fair shake, an honest investigation, some undivided attention. What do you have to lose?

As a kid in Texas we used to say to friends "I double-dawg dare y'all to" do whatever. In this case I double-dawg dare you to spend some quiet moments reading and considering the sermon on the mount.
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This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us.

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[zelazny]

too late :P
i was an xtian as kid and reverted to non-theism when i grew up so i'm afraid that that argument isn't really usefull towards me :P
On the other hand, i could say the opposite, have you ever tried atheism?

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Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.

[marturios]

i have not always been a christian. i came to be a christian honestly, not by birth nor a parents decision. i know what the other side is like: dark, empty and futile...and it sucks.

three questions
1. what kind of christian were you?

2. why did you 'revert back' to non-theism?

3. have you personally explored the life and teachings of Jesus?


by the way, it's only too late when you're dead. you could change at any moment prior to death. after death comes judgment.


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[Devil's Advocate]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zelazny:
2)
well, as far as morals go, they change per society and are (in my eyes) not a fixed structure but a series of rules that evolved in that society instead of being based on 'divine' rules. (even though many claim to be)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I completely agree with you. Religion, the teachings of religion, religious texts - are all man made. This statement is not a knock against religion - religion obviously serves a purpose within society, within the family, within each individual who chooses to believe or not to believe. My point here is simply to agree with Zelazny - man made structures, religious or otherwise are continually in flux and at the continuous mercy of all that is human in nature.


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[SHATOUSHKA]

ok. i am going to attempt to tie this all together...at least in one aspect.

maturious (i'm gonna pick on you a bit )raises the questions:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>1. what kind of christian were you?

2. why did you 'revert back' to non-theism?

3. have you personally explored the life and teachings of Jesus?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i find this level of questioning very interesting. and i will answer these questions based on my own life, mmmmmkay?

questions one and two can be lumped together as follows:

why kind of chrisitan was i? the type i was raised to be.
its a simple answer but honest as well. you see, if you were born into a chrisitan home that emphasised the religious rite, then you had no choice to 'discover' god on your own. you were thrust into the situation and threatened if you disaprooved. threatened with HELLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!
i do not find this to be a very moral situation. in fact, i find it to be more of a social perdicament...but enough about me.
this goes right into question two--
why did you revert back to non-theism?
well, its not exactly like reverting back, moreso of claiming what was your to begin with--a blank slate.
shoving onions down my throat as a child did not make me appreciate them all the while. and i only ate them because of fear of the parental units. i despised the fact that i was threatened to eat something that i could simply survive without.
(here, like with religion, i see it being pushed more because of authority-greed rather than good old-fashioned 'its good for you')
when i got old enough, i no longer had to eat onions because i HAD A CHOICE NOT TO. its wierd...you reach a certain age and suddenly you can choose to omit the onions from your burgers. *shrugs*
later, i just so happened to discover onions again for the very first time.
they were sauteed and deeeeeeeeelicious.
from that point on, i loved onions, but only if they were sauteed. i have a choice AND a preference. (main point!)
so its not exactly like you (if given you were born into religion as i was) have that right...you know, that right of free will they always talk about.
as a child, that free will remained to be seen.

question three bothers me. it seems like a trap question. if i claim to have 'personally explored the life and teachings of jesus' and found them to be ridiculous, i will be called a liar.
if i claim to have 'personally explored the life and teachings of jesus' and found them to be pertinent, i should have to prove it.
(c'mon, you know this is true )

first of all, no one can explore the life and teachings of jesus because no one knows the real life and teachings of jesus. jesus, himself, never wrote it down.
i do not wish to go into this roundabout. we all know where this is leading.

basically, i am tired of interpretation. i am tired of being fronted by the 'commissioned'.

jim jones personally explored the life and teachings of jesus, and look what happened to him!



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~~share some greased tea with me~~

General Philosophy