to an unknown god

[SHATOUSHKA]

i have more to add but i am pressed for time. i shall return later to finish the latter part of your post, maturious.

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~~share some greased tea with me~~

General Philosophy

[Tin_Heart]

Pleeeeeeeeeeeease tell me this thread isn't closed!!!!

marturios: In referance to the four points you made some time ago.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
1. The Light of Creation: God reveals himself to us through the creation. God's invisible qualities such as his eternal power and divine nature may be known by humanity because God made it plain to us. We can understood who God is from what he has made. The visible creation is a pathway to the invisible Creator.

2. The Light of Conscience: God reveals himself to humanity through an innate moral law we call conscience--sometimes it accuses us, sometimes it defends us. Like a moral compass it tells where we are going whether good or bad.

3. The Light of Canon Scripture: God reveals himself to humanity through the canon of Scripture. The sacred writings enable us to know and understand the truth about God. They set boundaries and make us concious of sin.

4. The Light of Christ Jesus: God reveals himself to humanity through the person of Jesus Christ. He makes known the grace and truth of God. God presented Jesus as a sacrifice for our sins to show his justice and mercy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. The visable creation theory has one flaw in it... the wonderful artist forgets to leave his signature. Before you misunderstand me, I mean that no where in the wind, the Grand Canyon, or Mars is there a huge "Made by Jevhova" sign. So many religions concerning with so many differant dieties have atributed these creations to their belief of God. How do you know you're correct? It could very well be that the Ancient greeks were right ans Zues created this all. Why would so many religions spring up if there was concret evidance that YOU, specifically, were right?

2. Ok then, how do you explain why differant people have differant morals? The bible clearly teachs Homosexuality to be a abomination, yet my Conscience tells me this is not true. The bible teachs woman should not be teachers of man, because woman was first decived and became a sinner... yet my Conscience tells me this isn't right either. A woman can be as good a teacher as a man. My Conscience tells me that woman should be equal to man, the bible dictates a man should have dominance over his wife. If my Conscience disaagrees with the bible... and my Conscience comes from God... then is the Bible wrong?

3. SO too, does the Karan. And many other Holy Books. The Bible itself wasn't even accepted by the church until 360 years after the death of Jesus Christ. Also, if the bible is unfalable, why are there contradictory teachings? If Moses wrote the first five books, why is he depicting his own death? If he didn't write them, who did, and how do we know they speak for God? Why do the three Gospels record differing versions of Jesus, including differing statments on what his last words were? If God doesn't condone sin, why does the bible record him ordering Genocide? How come so many people have used the bible for thier own purposes, if the true message is so clear?

4. If I got onto this debate, it would probibly eat up all the disk space Hoastboard has. I'll let you have that point. Unless you press... then I'm bringing the Dala Lamma into it!

Ok, those who sat through this deserve a little treat. Since I think Shat was the only one who made it to the end... *L*

Every time I look at you I don't understand
Why you let the things you did get so out of hand
You'd have managed better if you'd had it planned
Oh, why'd you choose such a backwards time and such a strange land?
If you'd come today you could have reached the whole nation
Isreal in 4 B.C. had no mass comunication

Don't you get me wrong
Don't you get me wrong
Don't you get me wrong now
Don't you get me wrong

I only wanna know
I only wanna know now
I only wanna know
I only wanna know

Jesus Christ, Juses Christ
Who are you, what have you sacrificed?
Jesus Christ, Superstar
Do you think you're what they say you are?

Tell me what you think about your friends at the top
Now who'd you say besides yourself's the pick of the crop?
Buddah, was he where it's at, is he where you are?
Could Mohammad move a mountain or was that just PR?
Did you mean to die like that, was that a mistake or
Did you kow your messages would be a record breaker?

I think you know how the rest goes.




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Tin Heart

"Then, like a child, I closed my eyes, that I might not see the darkness..."

-JV

[marturios]

you have all ben kind enough to respond and i am grateful. i appreciate your willingness to answr the questions i posed but find it peculiar that many want to avoid the jesus question. i think it is simply a matter of personal convenience. you have the right but i believe the consequences are grave.

besides that i think you can now see why i began the thread the way i did. (see the first couple of posts in case you forgot.) i contend that many people simply do not like God, especially as he is revealed in Jesus Christ, so they either reject any notion of god or they create their own god(s).

The verdict: Light has come into the world, but humanity loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light.

it is my hope and prayer that you will change your minds about these matters. Until then i hold you in my prayers.

love your neighbor as yourself and love one another.

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[SHATOUSHKA]

here, here, folks!!!! let the man speak!!!!
maturios--you are always welcome to post WHATEVER you want. i am sure i do not need to email you explaining the type of board you are on.
we are all here to discuss...ok, perhaps that is more of debate...but what can ya do?

*i would like to pause at this time for thanking tin heart for adding not only that song to this thread...but also to my mind for the rest of the day!!!!*


i do have a very simple (and perhaps very difficult) question for anyone, including you maturios, to answer:

why would a people (a very sadistic people) find pleasure in killing their god?
i am explicitly referring to the crucifixion. do you think that the ancients would crucify or kill zeus???? they would laugh at such a notion.
besides, i am going to go further in this...so please read on.
there is more honor in an atheist soldier jumping on a grenade and saving two of his buddies in veitnam than a pansy christ killing himself FOR ALL THE WORLD!!!!!
think about it. the atheist had no guarantee fo resurrection. not only that, he sacrificed EVERYTHING in comparison.
i have no problem with reading or listening to 'the words of jesus'.
what i have a problem with is the obvious SICKENING of a human race that finds a deep pleasure in worshipping an ace in the hole.

i hate to get like this!!!! i hate it!!!!
but unless you can look into WHAT YOUR ARE TELLING YOURSELF TO BELIEVE IN...and truly come up with some honest answers...i don't wanna hear it.

don't give me some crap about the soldier getting eternal reward...screw that. he was an atheist.
freakin jesus KNEW he was going to die. today, anyone else would be heckled for being a suicidal person...and even that, they would burn for all time for such a decision!!!!! wtf?????
do not give me the cop out that jesus was god and blah blah blah...and therefore the loophole is created. that is just as much BS.
answer my two questions!!!!! anyone!!!!!!

why do we find it necessary to have our GOD! come down here and parade around and kill himself just to rise again???????
would jesus have burned in hell for all eternity just to prevent us from going??????
NO!!!!
we already knew COUNTLESS times that we have a choice. we can choose to do god's word or not. we had this miracle that miracle etc etc etc...and then what??????
we get to see a pansy god send his son to die...BUT HE DIDN"T TRULY DIE!!!!!! no, he rose again!!!!!

screw that.
i am finished.

*tin heart--i suppose you now see that this is not how i respond typically on TATE*

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~~share some greased tea with me~~

General Philosophy

[Devil's Advocate]

Hmmm... I am confused. I can't figure out the two questions, only one, I think. And for this one question - I have more questions.

Question One: Why would a people murder their god?

To prove he was god? Humans are known to be quite distrustful - especially when the "faith" that they grew up knowing was not the "faith" Jesus asked them to believe. He was offering something new and they may have simply been testing it. If that is true, is this test a sin?

Did they really know if he was god or not?
-OR (to say it another way)-
I am not sure if this next question will make complete sense in the way that I want it to... but...
Which came first, the story of Jesus or Jesus himself?

Is Question 2: Why would god feel obliged to in essence commit suicide?

I think I am confusing myself as I move along here. I have not yet developed my exact point but thought I would try and flush out some more ideas through these questions. More later... when my brain decides to start working again.
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[This message has been edited by Devil's Advocate (edited October 23, 2001).]

[marturios]

I need to post two responses.

The first deals with the accusation that Jesus was a pansy.

Shatoushka: I am not shocked by your characterizations of Jesus as a pansy. Others have criticized Jesus without
cause. It seems to me that you are blinded by your prejudice against Jesus and dishonest about who he was. Surely you could find some admirable virtue in Jesus. It is childish to resort to name-calling. Emotions often get in the way of real dialogue. Breathe deeply...count to ten or something.

Consider: When we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man (though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die). But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were sinners Christ died for us.

Jesus was not a suicidal pansy maniac. The fact that he laid down his life on behalf of others shows courage, love and virtue. There is no greater love than laying down your life on behalf a brother or friend. Except when one lays down his life for an enemy. Jesus laid down his life for friends and
enemies because he loved them. I doubt the same could be said of anyone on this hostboard, myself included. Truly Jesus was crucified in weakness but he was raised in power. Jesus' actions were heroic not suicidal.

The least we should do is represent Jesus accurately, but that means dealing with someone who expects you to be more than your are, better than you are, even different. I apply this to myself as well.

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[SHATOUSHKA]

you are right, maturios, i behaved quite irrationally. for this, i apologize to you personally.

for the rest of you...more to come.



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~~share some greased tea with me~~

General Philosophy

[marturios]

My second response pertains to the issue of people killing their god. Like or not it was a sick case of mistaken identity. We must see this from two vantage points: human and divine.

Human Point of View
First, in their political and nationalistic zeal the Religious Establishment was preparing for a militant messiah. Jesus did not meet their expectations so they (with the help of the Roman authorities) had him executed.

Furthermore, Jesus claimed to be God in the flesh. The Religious Establishment considered his claims blasphemous so they executed him according to their understanding of Mosaic law.

Divine Point of View
We have not even taken into account the set purpose and foreknowledge of God. That is more than most of you want to consider at this point.

None of the rulers of the age understood Jesus. If they had they would not have crucified him.

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[SHATOUSHKA]

supposing a new 'jesus' came today. could he expect the same treatment?

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~~share some greased tea with me~~

General Philosophy

[zelazny]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
The verdict: Light has come into the world, but humanity loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure what you mean with light and darkness, they're probably quite simple and well-defined (ooh, i dare you to define them ) ideas but i doubt many people see things exactly like you do.
i doubt that the person who steals from another does so because he 'hates' to be light (if it means what i think it is= good) but because he wants that money.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How do you know what the truth is? maybe there is another 'light' or truth...

Hmm, it's hard to reason this way, could you please define light and dark, good and evil?



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Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.