Can Evil Exist without humans or animals...???

[doodoo]

To Foop:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Evil does exist - but without humans and animals in existance to experience it, some may say evil itself doesn't exist.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What is holding you back from admitting that evil does not exist? Is it because you have experienced it (that is, you have been the victim of someone's evil ways)? I think Alex has made a point here. Humans often act in a cruel way to other humans, and these other humans name this cruelty 'evil'.
Leibniz put it like this:
As less evil is the reason of good, thus less good is the reason of evil (Uti minus malum habet rationem boni, ita minus bonum habet rationem mali). Evil and good are the two ends of a slider, much like the ones you see in equalizers. This slider indicates one's welfare when interacting with someone else.
Of course you don't have to agree. You can think of evil as existing in-itself, as self-evident and non-dependent on human nature. Yet, you may ask yourself: if this is the case, does it make any sense to hope/believe/wish/try to sweep evil away?

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UlTm8 BOARDOM

[FOOP]

If a tree falls, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? Evil does exist - but without humans and animals in existance to experience it, some may say evil itself doesn't exist.

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"God is dead." -Nietsche.

"Nietsche is dead." -God.

[Alex]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FOOP:
If a tree falls, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? Evil does exist - but without humans and animals in existance to experience it, some may say evil itself doesn't exist.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How about you swap out the word experience with the word "cause".

Is Shatzy done beating her head against her desk so that she lowers her IQ sufficiently to contribute to this conversation?

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Alex

[FOOP]

I guess you could look at it like temperature (or how I look at it, anyways): Evil is the absence of good, as cold is the absence of heat.

What is holding you back from admitting that evil does not exist? Is it because you have experienced it (that is, you have been the victim of someone's evil ways)? I think Alex has made a point here. Humans often act in a cruel way to other humans, and these other humans name this cruelty 'evil'. The reason I believe evil "exists", is because the Bible says that nature as a whole -- along with mankind -- is inherently evil because of the fall of man. That's why I believe.

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"God is dead." -Nietsche.

"Nietsche is dead." -God.

[SHATOUSHKA]

well... NOW we're getting somewhere...

are those storm clouds i see?
*sniffs*
no...
must be something in the air.

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~~share some greased tea with me~~
General Philosophy
Discuss This...
The Acropolis

[doodoo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The reason I believe evil "exists", is because the Bible says that nature as a whole -- along with mankind -- is inherently evil because of the fall of man.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, the Bible is indeed inspired by God. But I haven't seen anything like "inherent evil of mankind or nature". What I know is the Man was created as a representation of the Creator, thus representing all attributes pertaining to God. God is anything but evil, so "evil" is not to be sought for within the intrinsic properties of Man.
Cold is indeed the absence of heat. But it may well work reversely: heat is the absence of cold. Absence itself is not a bad thing, neither evil. In fact, absence (or negation) itself has no meaning.
Now, look at this: since absence has no meaning, Cold and Heat must exist independent from each other, if they must exist at all. On the other hand, what is Cold for me (that is, approx. 12 centigrades or less) may not be Cold for you, while the range between cold and heat is anything but agreed upon. The same applies to evil-good dilemma.
Evil is not a mental state either; it doesn't dwell in the mind. It is rather a characterization of a (more or less subjective) fact. Now, a fact is bound to interpretation. It's like a dictionary lookup. You have the word "doodoo", you search it in the dictionary, you find no such word, and then you have two options:
1) Suppose there is no such word (or - that word does not exist)
2) Suppose the dictionary is outdated or anyway incomplete.

Chances are you prefer the 1st option. But, at this point, this is only a matter of preference. When you realize that the dictionary says that the Sun evolves round the Earth, then you might have second thoughts on your preference. Then again, when you read in a most recent scientific book that there is no absolute space in the Universe, and that any point can be the center of it, then you might be sure that the 1st choice was right. But only then will it make sense to say that the 1st choice is justifiable. Until then, it will only remain a belief, based on socio-psychological tendencies.

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UlTm8 BOARDOM

[doodoo]

Mr Robin,
hmmm...

...

just that. Mister Robin.

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UlTm8 BOARDOM

[SHATOUSHKA]

sometimes i believe that there is a greater existence out there that is far more worse than evil ever could be. this entity, this form... is just waiting for us to name it...so that it would have permission to come and devour us all.

*shat says 'patooweee' to forms*

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~~share some greased tea with me~~
General Philosophy
Discuss This...
The Acropolis

[Mr. Robin]

Inasmuch as you cannot prove anything with anything other then subjective testimony, it is in the inherent nature of the use of words that we can either agree, or disagree, entirely unpon the subjective interpretation of the intputs and outputs that arise in conversations.

The absence of heat being cold is NOT a reversable function, unless it is subjectivised, as is done in this posting by a subjective opinion of just what is cold.

If the concensus driven objectivety of observational fact is retained, then there is no such thing as cold, only the absence of heat. All temperature begins at zero Kelvin.

(This is aside from my statements concerning Black holes having, on the event horizon inner side, a temperature of -1 K, as this is NOT a provable 'observation')

As for the existance of evil, it is manifest in the activeties of certain humans over time, clearly evidenced by the historic records of there endevours/fruits of there labours.

That it exists independantly from that, until we can conclusively prove the existance of beings, other then ourselves,or spirits, then we cannot prove, or disprove, it! We can only make subjective testimony to our individual (or if in one 'group') belief.

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My Teacher is in all people, but not all people are my Teacher

[doodoo]

This is exactly the case. This entity won't swoop down on us unless we give it a name. And this is what happens all the time. From the moment we name something, we grant it existence. And paraphrasing Descartes:

I thing X, therefore X is,

which is an arbitrary assertion.

[This message has been edited by doodoo (edited January 11, 2002).]