there is no such thing as Free Will...

[SHATOUSHKA]

again, lets argue.
state your claim.

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General Philosophy

[Alex]

nah, don't feel like right now.

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Alex

[Pragmatic Pete]

Hello Shatoushka,
I interpret free will to be the equivalent of free choice. Would you agree on that point? As far as your statement that there is no free will, I would have to disagree. If you are talking about fate or destiny then that is a whole other subject, but I believe that we do have the ability to make our own choices. I chose to reply to this message. I chose to come to this message board today. Please explain to me how I acted not by my own free will, but from some other power.

Thank You,
Pragmatic Pete

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[SHATOUSHKA]

i thought i'd save some post time by directly asking you what type of pragmatist you are, pete.
surely its just not another catchy name.

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General Philosophy

[Pragmatic Pete]

I have used many different theories that are all varied, yet still connected to come up with how I interpret pragmatism. Are you familiar with Charles Peirce and William James?

-Pete

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[SHATOUSHKA]

*smokes slow burning pipe*

buttov corzzzzzz!

but thats no way to live your life!

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General Philosophy

[Devil's Advocate]

But how much of our "choices" are actually guided by influences we did not "choose".

For example (I am over generalizing this example just to make it easier to explain): Boys are historically raise to be the bread winners. Girls are historically raised to be the care-givers. Within these confinds, how much of our decisions or choices are really our own? Aren't we simply reacting to the way we were brought up? Are we not working within the constraints of society - does this fact not hinder our ability for free will or choice?

Just a thought...

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[Sapius]

OK, Shatoush, I will post my thoughts again.

Free-Will exists naturally, but it is on a leash of different lenghts for different things, which are all created by nature itself.

I will copy and paste what I said at another forum on this subject where somebody wanted a "definition" of "free-will"

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Is "Free-Will" an illusion or Real? I say both.
And there is no contradiction if one can see it both ways.

Let me first put it this way... Definition:

"Free Will" is Real, but a prisoner of Nature (Cause & Effect), on a leash of different lengths.

I will try to explain what I mean.

As long as you are in a temporal form (temporary Human form before one dies), and as Dan correctly mentions...[I don't think he would mind me quoting him here]


Quote:
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We only conceive of things that way because we are not in possession of all the facts concerning it.
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Which could mean, that we are not conscious of All the facts, Causes, which preceded our "thinking", which resulted in a certain conclusion or choice. In that, free will is a prisoner of Cause & Effect.

I might not be able to explain properly, but please bear with me.

Now, one has to think and understand what free will is, other than the definition "we" give to "free-will", what would it mean to Nature? For it does seem to be apparent, that "we" do seem to take a "decision", that seem to be a product of our "own" Mind, because we have "words" which act as Causes to our Mind, and Mind is but a product Caused by Nature.

So it stands to reason, that free will in the end, is a product of Nature, irrelevant of it seeming to be an illusion.

Now, forgetting the definition that looms in our Minds, which is, 'a "choice" made by us "through Logical deduction"'. Could something known as "free-will" exist in Nature? That is other than in Humans.

I say yes, and I will try to show you.

Lets start with the next thing that we consider to be at a lesser "conscious" level than us - animals.

A baby cheetah is as curious about its environment, (watch Discovery), as we are when born. The cheetah grows up with his own experiences, and we with ours. When a grown cheetah goes hunting a gazelle, he does this because of his previous experiences of a failed attempt to down a buffalo. In this, he has "chosen" an easier pray that could be killed easily, rather than the buffalo which in his "experience", cannot be killed by him alone.

Has he exercised "free-will"? Taken a "decision"?

I understand that we call it "instinct", but I don't see it that way. It is very clear to me, that a certain experience has led him to that decision.

Lets get a bit deeper now.

Atoms: Do atoms have a choice?

Atoms will meet with some atoms and reject others. We understand this as an inherent property of an atom, a code, which is imbedded in them through Nature. But, they are exposed to atoms that they surely reject, and recognize them as incompatible. In that, they are "experiencing", "recognizing", and thereby "rejecting". This is a "decision" which an "atom" has made on its "own"(free-will), due to its limited information imbedded in it (prisoner of Nature), and can "choose" to accept or reject another atom.

Does it have "free-will"?

Well, I think so, but it is on a very short leash, and a human Mind, with language, reasoning, and logic, is on a much longer leash than an atom, for it has now developed a complex enough brain to do all the "thinking" it can, but yet is a prisoner of Cause & Effect, that is if one can see that far back, and sink it in his understanding, which is not easy.

Free-will is more a mystery to us, because we have a very complex Mind, and have come to recognize something as free-will, and these complex properties give the ability to "imagine" things, and the Mind questions "imaginations" too, thereby getting entangled in "illusions".

An atom has just a few Causes to choose from. He meets an atom, chooses to meet or not to meet. On the other hand, we are at a much higher level, and can choose and reject from many Causes that are presented to our Minds. For example, my words in this post, will Cause you to think and choose between what I say, what religion says, what mystics say, what numerous other Philosophers say, Isn't it? And you can reject some, accept some, or choose bits and pieces from some, and come up with your own.

So, a human Mind has the capability to accept or reject a far greater "Causes", which are presented to his Mind as meaningful words and ideas, and thereafter deciphered through logic, and a "choice" is then made, be it between choosing religion, or flavor of an Ice-Cream, it's just a matter of degrees.

Animals and other things do not "recognize" or realize "free-will", and thereby are unaware of it, but lead us to believe that they exist in some kind of a Natural Universal Harmony, and are inherently aware of a Grand Cause, because we know what "free will" is, and have a verbal understanding of it. As in, when one sees a Cat lazing around, least concerned about what is happening around it. But actually, the Cat is Not "aware" of its free will, and does not have a complex enough Mind to question it.

The essence of Free-Will cannot be understood from the limited meaning found in a Dictionary, you have to look at Nature.

Every-thing is in a sense ?alive?, and they are all but, a different representation of Nature, on a leash of different lengths of "free-will" allowed.


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....just IMHO though.

[ek3]

"American donuts. Glazed, powdered, and raspberry-filled. Now, how's that for freedom of choice?" - Homer Simpson. I think that sums it up...please close this topic now, problem solved.

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"He called the shit, poop!" - Billy Madison

[SHATOUSHKA]

hmmm....how do i respond....

1) sapius--
its nice to see you here again. i was beginning to wonder about you. it may be tough living a life of dual-personalities, but lets try to keep with the pace.

oh yeah...and i am surprised that 'dan' had such a profound thought.


2) ek3--
its nice to see you humor me when i need it the most

3) devil's advocate--
you have proven my point nicely

sapius--
don't get excited...i will respond to your prepared post momentarily. i promise.


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General Philosophy