there is no such thing as Free Will...

[zelazny]

sapius...wow..

kinda like my reasoning: even though the choice was predetermined, it doesn't take away the fact that it still was a choice in the first place.
I can choose between strawberries and okra,
in a way i'm predetermined to like strawberries more than okra so i'll probably choose for the strawberry. But there was the choice between both and i made it, even though the answer was known far in advance.

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Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.

[TastinGood]

Um...excuse me, but there is such thing as 'Free Will'. How could you forget it? It had a spectacular ending with Willy jumping to freedom over the rocks and swimming to the rest of his family. I would be lying if I said I didn't cry at that movie.

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"If Lincoln had thought being the President was such a longshot, we'd have nobody's picture on the one dollar bill" -Arthur Fonzerelli (The Fonz)

[SHATOUSHKA]

er....moving right along...

zela, if your outcome was predetermined, how can one have free will?

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General Philosophy

[zelazny]

because there was the CHOICE, even though it was predetermined what you did or will do, there was the chance to not do it.
It is by my own will that i type this text, i could also have chosen not to, but for some reason i did, and that's the crux here, there may be a reason, but i don't know it, and i don't know in how far it was my choice or just my nurture/nature showing.
So in all honesty it has to be a free choice in my perception.

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Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.

[Devil's Advocate]

Allow me to live up to my nickname for a second...

If you don't know what these "reasons" are that made you "choose" what you chose, does that negate the fact that these "reasons" exist at all?

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[Sapius]

Zela, Excellent! Soon there will be no contradictions in your Mind, and all mysteries of existence will be automatically solved, and answers very apparent to you.

I don't have to answer Shatoush as you have said it well, but allow me rant on.

Life is full of contradictions, and these contradictions are the foundations of what most learned people have called illusions. These "illusions" may well be illusions in some sense, but they do really exist to a Mind created by nature which is in essence Nature itself, which in the wake is in a process of experiencing its own existence, so when we think that "we" perceive, "we" think, "we" feel all the emotions, "we" choose, it is actually Nature doing all those things and experiencing all those things - through ALL of the "living" things - and at the same time!!! A tremendous understanding for a puny little "mind' such as ours, which put together for Nature acts as ONE. It is something unimaginable to an individual mind for it THINKS that it is INDIVIDUAL whereas actually it is not. It's like one of the neurons in our brain that "thinks" it is something complete on its own, and we as individuals are no more than a single neuron to Nature.
Sorry to break this news, but this is as old as the first headline ever reported by Flintstone, and this is exactly what all the learned people of the past have been trying to express since human Mind first started experiencing the power of thinking and reaching certain understanding, little by little.

Let me say again, equate Nature to your self for example. What are you but your Mind, which is but a purer form of energy, (remember someone said - Energy never dies!), which was created through matter - Brain - which is no more than another form of energy, and all matter is one or another form of energy. So basically, it is understood that the bases of cause and effect is the infinite change in form of energy, which is not driven by any external force for it is the Nature of every effect to be a result of a previous cause, and every effect is a cause of a future affect. One cannot ask that where this began because one already knows the answer through science, and that is, Energy never dies, so there could be no point at which it began, and therefore it always existed. All that is happening is that Energy in locked in a multi billion year cycle of changing its from one extreme to another, chaos - balance - chaos, and life is created at each pinnacle of balance and nature experiences its own self. It uses us, and all that you can perceive, think or imagine, as tools. Just as we have the tools of perception and a brain to help us realize all that we perceive, Nature uses us, animals, fishes, trees, flowers, to a lesser degree rocks and even dust, to PERCEIVE and EXPERIENCE its Existence.

What drives the Nature is its inherent quality of experiencing its self and perpetually repeating it eternally through the cycle of self-build and self-destroy. And this cycle is necessary because otherwise it would be a stagnant existence and nothing would be as it is.

We try to look for a "beginning" of Nature because we are used to seeing things having a beginning and an end. We expect everything to act in that way because it would be illogical according to our "known" understandings, but the same is not true for Nature. Imagine that all that there is, are all different organs of Nature that are evolving within it, but there is no "within" because there is no OUT, because there is no end to the extent to that which is Entirety. This then stands to our reason, that although we see things with a beginning and an end, there has to be something unending to run it, and there is no harm in calling it God. The problem arises when we do not accept it not to have a "reactively thinking" Mind, because Nature seems so full of intelligent "design", and somebody has to build it, and run it, just as we build things and run it. The design basically is intelligent, but is an inherent quality of Nature and there is no external "Mind" necessarily needed to run it.

Each individual, that is each Mind, put together could be said to be a collective "Mind" of Nature, and so each Mind is kind of a fragment of God's Mind, but there is no "individual God" as such, because he is all that there is, and everywhere around us. Omni-All! All religions have come to understand God correctly, but simply give it a personality, and all religions seem to attribute different history to it, thereby giving rise to different religions and denominations, and sects, and divisions, and whatever?.. If we put together bits and pieces of certain knowledge found in almost all religion, science, mathematics, mysticism, myths, etc., etc., realizing and choosing the right pieces of a huge jigsaw puzzle and put it together, we can logically see the truth of Reality which has been right under our noses so to speak, and anyone can see it if he solves the contradictions one sees in them, basically it is very simple and logical, but we simply do not see it.

But it is my understanding that nothing can be done about it by forcing it onto others, for ALL that happens, and I cannot emphasize enough on ALL, is absolutely necessary for Nature to experience its existence. What I mean is that all that we think has to be necessarily eliminated to solve the mysteries of Reality, have to first exist necessarily, because what would be there to *Realize* if everything was already known. Wouldn't it be a moot existence then? Just like being in heaven and doing nothing at all. So in a manner of speaking, hell is as important to experience to know about heaven, and then back again to hell to again experience the experience of REALIZING heaven. The key is the experience in the process of realization, not in how and what things that exist.

And hence, I had come to this understanding that "EXPERIENCE" is the sole basis of existence after I went through a period of restless and intense quest of trying to understand the meaning of Existence of All that there is from the age of 9 until about 25. On the other hand, I believe that one has to have a kind of an inherent urge to go in search in this direction, which is basically triggered in certain individual minds that are basically balanced, AND this is not an accomplishment of an individual as we might think, because what are we but Nature at its work, and by a balanced mind I mean, that it is a mind which is somehow very calm and peaceful, and that happens if that mind is somehow automatically is a very "just" and a "loving " mind.

We see that even twins turn out to have different personalities although there was basically no difference between them. Taking their basic "natural personality", which we now know that it might have something to do with DNA, (can you imagine that as a whole we are still in the kindergarten of knowledge as far as Entirety is concerned, and are proud of discovering quarks and a theory of UN-certainty?? Shame on us!!!), proves that there is an inbuilt personal quality through the process of evolution that takes place from the time of conception, but the information comes from millions of causes that preceded it, and ends up in an uniquely individual personality which will experience existence on its own, making its own choices, but is actually only a part of Nature which is doing the same thing in every individual and all are as important and equal to Nature (Remember? All religions say that we all are equal and children of God, this is how! And this is more logical and acceptable to me, which makes me not only love and honor every individual and see no difference between race, religion, cast or creed, but also induces an intense respect and love of everything that exists, for we are carbon based, and why shouldn't I see value in charcoal which is also carbon in a different form, and both and all are form of matter, which is no more that different form of Energy. This does not mean that I start taking any of these material things, or create a non-material thing like Energy into God, but realize that we and all that there is, is so very interdependent on each other to existence, that it is existence itself.)

I'm sorry, you might find that I start with one thing and end up another, but the truth is, that this is so unimaginably vast, so intricate, so interconnected, so interdependent, that one cannot help but drift from one to another, but the key is that once you go through an intense period of confusion and the urge to solve it, you keep on collecting gems of knowledge and in the end it all fits so perfectly well and you suddenly realize it, because then you begin to see all of it at the same time, but cannot explain it as the moment you talk about one thing, the person who hears it, immediately puts forth a question on it because he sees a contradiction, and when you start to explain the un-contradictory nature on that particular point by saying something else, he again sees another contradiction in the new explanation, because he does not keep in mind the whole big picture, and is trying to find sense in the piece of a jigsaw puzzle, which will basically seem contradictory, for it is not the whole, and at that moment he does not see beyond that piece of an individual piece of information, and is confused over it. Just like going too deep into investigating that what we perceive could actually anything else but "RED", so EVERYTHING is subjective and nothing can be know. For Gods sake! That is not what is important, but that you EXPERIENCE something, what ever it may be, IS IMPORTANT. At times even I get frustrated and shut up. It is very true that one has to find his own destiny, and no one else can help another in that sense, except give certain hints and let the person think for himself.

OK, I know that this will raise quite a few questions because I might have left something which to me is obvious, but could be an incomplete sentence to others, so if there are any questions, please keep other relative understandings in mind.

Ah! SHATOUSH, and all, please understand, I am at times in a state of mind when I cannot control its flow, and not remember what I posted where, or who posted what in which thread, but I remember that Shatoush kind of agreed about something I said about dice throwing and how it seems to be a matter of chance, and then, Shatoush, I read somewhere, I could have misread it though, but it seemed to me that you have doubts about Cause And Effect. But that example of throwing of the dice is a good example of Cause and Effect, and that is all that there is to it. Now applying this to everything, all things become a prisoner of Cause and Effect, and given the inherent quality of each thing of accepting and rejecting certain things, which is in turn a code of nature imbedded in all those things, which seems to be Free will, and IT IS basically Free will within certain limits, just that we "think" that "we" can do Anything, and that too all on our own without having anything to do with the fact that it is nature doing all that through us, is what is know as illusion or delusion. Once you understand that, all those seven deadly Sins automatically are eliminated from your mind, because you realize that is was something necessary for Nature to experience in the past to break through it and experience existence on a higher plane. You see, something has to start from a lower level to move on to a higher one, so a lover level has to exist to go through it and reach a higher level, and so on. Now one can ask, so where did it start? But it did not start at any point, because energy never dies, it simply cycles and creates these lower and higher levels perpetually, and that is timeless, so no beginning, no end, only evolving and devolving eternally. For what? To experience its self and enjoy at "our" expense in a sense, so it is as indifferent to us, as much as it needs us, for "we" are its creation, and Nature is creation itself, so it leaves no creator in control. And that is why, one can experience God through visions, but cannot actually see a form because religion says that he doesn't have one, and that is true, because he is in every one of us, in what way? It is the your mind that is a part of God, and all the Minds put together is what makes God, not the other way around, for without our Minds coming into existence, there would be no God. (Philosophers say that and they too are correct) Existence of the Mind is a Mystery, and it is a self-created mystery of Nature to experience its existence, and it uses the very same Mind to solve that mystery, which is a process imbedded in the nature of Nature, and that is what keeps it going and churning. So, in a sense, we are, and all that there is, is what makes up God, and without all that there is, there is no "God". At least not as most religion claim and give personal qualities to a thing that could exist on its own. Yes, if you say that Nature needs nothing to run it, and thereby has a "quality" of God, then it makes sense, but that does not warrant a need to worship it or pray to it, for you would be in effect praying to your self, for it is your own mind which collectively results in a God, but respect nature you must, with all your heart and soul as you would a God.

Another contradiction that one will see is when I say that praying is good and it actually works, Isn't it?
But I say that praying also does work, not as a supernatural phenomenon, or granted by a personal God, nor a mere co-incidence, although it may seem to be co-incidental, we as human have not yet understood or experienced the power of the Mind as individuals, we have heard about Mind over matter, but are not yet evolved enough mentally to actually experience it, but it does happen from time to time as Mind is on the whole evolving, and some simply are able to break out of the norm, and it is very much possible for a mind to effect another mind (hypnosis), over other matter, (examples of people being able to move other objects. Forget about the ones that have been proved to be frauds), mystical experiences of Astro traveling. This is what I mean when I talk about a BIG picture, I have all of these aspects already solved and stored in the back of my mind, and I see them all answered because all of it is now perpetually connected in my mind and nothing seems to be a mystery. It will take me some time to explain my experiences and understandings, but trust me, once it starts falling in place, it is so very simple, that one could faint at its simplicity! I don't know how else to express its impact; an individual on individual basis can only experience it.

I think I have said enough. Please do not mind if I disappear from time to time, I have a life, and at times I'm not mentally present to say something coherent, that does not mean I'm crazy, but to give an example, I could not even begin to tell you what I felt when those planes crashed, killing not only the people on the ground, and the passengers and crew in the plane, but the terrorists too. I include those deluded terrorists and morn for them too. I feel an intense pressure of pain, but no anger or feeling of revenge, even if the dearest thing in all of Entirety would have been annihilated in this act. It is difficult to explain the reason of this to a person who cries out, and instinctively strikes back when somebody breaks down his doll- house. I know one will say it is not the same thing, but I wonder, if it all of what we have built, is anything more than a doll-house, and will not exist very soon, say in a thousand billion years, so what are we fighting over? Fighting over temporary possessions? Fighting to satisfy an empty egocentric emotion of having power? Fighting over having something more compared to another? Which destroys all good things and sets us back instead of going forward hand in hand. It is not the WTC of America that has been destroyed, but the progressive efforts of mankind that has been set back, which will also affect the families and friends of the terrorists, and humanity as a whole. But I guess that this is a thing that happens at the early stages of mental evolution and cannot be avoided, for it is nothing "evil" that does it, but something that resulted because a certain Mind accepted certain Causes presented to its Mind, and rejected others, and concluded that killing innocent people was the only way to make another Mind realize that he has done something wrong which has troubled him.

We have had two wars, this might be the third, and there may be many more before most of us mentally evolve into human beings. I think in terms of eons, and not earthly years.

Oops, there I go again on a different topic. Any way it is 5.40 AM where I live, and since I'm still very well mentally awake, I think I will write up a post that I had promised some time back in a different thread here and post it in a day or two. I think it had something to do on Mind, let me see how I can put it, and where do I begin.

Pardon all grammatical mistakes, and of course, as I have now permanently stamped it into my signature, people who don't agree in what I say, can ask for logical explanations, but cannot say that I'm imposing anything onto them, for it is??.


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....just IMHO though.

[Sapius]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Devil's Advocate:
Allow me to live up to my nickname for a second...

If you don't know what these "reasons" are that made you "choose" what you chose, does that negate the fact that these "reasons" exist at all?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


If I understand correctly, then your question in no way supports the nature of your nickname.

Basically it does not negate the fact that "reasons" exist, but since we are not aware of all the reasons behind it, we think that it is a matter of chance, lottery, but then again, the fact that you, Devil's Advocate, exists, and the fact that "you" could NOT exist by a ratio of one to a billion, which in itself is a one to a multi-billion chance, which you won at your last major lottery, which was when "you" were conceived. So "you" could not have been, and it couldn't have been anything else but "you". But in which direction of mental evolution you will end up, will result from the things your mind accepts and rejects, as thoughts and ideas, and as a thing, you have that choice, and there are many things that have been given certain liberty of choice; it is not only us humans that have "free-will" you know. So, free will exists and not at the same time, no contradictions. IF you see one, there is no outside logic that will convince you otherwise, it has to come through your own understanding.




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....just IMHO though.

[zelazny]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Zela, Excellent! Soon there will be no contradictions in your Mind, and all mysteries of existence will be automatically solved, and answers very apparent to you.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
does that mean i'll be able to read at night without a light bulb?

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Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.

[Sapius]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>does that mean i'll be able to read at night without a light bulb?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure Zela, not only that, but in a manner of speaking, when a Mind really opens up, not only will it not need a light bulb, but it would not even need physical eyes to read or lirerally see something. But it happens one step at a time.

****************

I just noticed....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Shatoush: 1) sapius--
its nice to see you here again. i was beginning to wonder about you. it may be tough living a life of dual-personalities, but lets try to keep with the pace. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again I fail to understand what you are saying here Shatoush. Honestly, I don't understand the part of me having a "dual-personality"? And me Keeping up to what pace?

Is it that you find something contradictory in what I say here and at Genius Forum?

I had not posted anywhere recently, not even at Genius compared to here, because I actually looked into the forums just few days ago when I started staying on line for longer periods of time, and I saw that you were again curious about things that I could say something about, and posted response to some. I haven't posted at Genius as yet because David and Dan have not answered some of my much earlier posts. I think because the forum there is a little slow, or they are too busy, or simply want to avoid answering my questions. If avoiding, then it is most probably because; either due to not having an appropriate logical answer that would convince me, quite understandable. OR, my question, which is sometimes actually an answer, is understood but not openly accepted; I understand that too and do not mind if one agrees and keeps quite, but a word in agreement does encourage a person to share more of his experiences. OR, they are so overly engrossed and indulge so deeply and believe in what they have understood till date as a result of their perfect logical thinking, and knowledge of selectively chosen books and thinkers, that they have willfully closed their minds, just like an Academic Philosopher, who cannot have an open mind according to their claim, and do not want to listen or discuss what they might consider a futile exercise according to their conclusion of understanding of Reality, which cannot be un-true since it seems illogical to them otherwise.

I just know that although David claims to be somewhat of a deliverer of the wanna-be enlightened, is still struggling himself in trying to eliminate one of the basic illusions that will let one see the light of day, and that is control over emotions, which is just the beginning of which is to come.

I will post there soon, but for now, even I am not in the mood to argue with people who are filled with pride of artificial thoughts of knowledge, and chase after a Single Absolute Truth Of Reality, or something of that sort, whereas according to there own logic, it should not exist.

FYI, think about it, how could there be One Absolute, when there are billions of things being caused at the same time, never stopping, perpetually repeating, changing form from one thing to another, no stop or start at any point, a continuous chain of events in the form of cause and effect, in all and every different direction, which is basically so immense in size that even if one says that he knows and understands it, he could not even begin to imagine its vastness; now looking for An Absolute Truth is nothing new, but we already have answered it long time ago, God, that is the only thing that is Absolute with all its attributes, otherwise, we just exist because Entirety just IS, and that is because Energy never dies, and people like David, end their statement with "...Entirety just IS", that's it, and one cannot logically question it! But we already have the answer to it and it is not illogical to question it! How stupid can we be??? We already know that Energy never dies, and that is the reason that all that there is, IS, and could not have a beginning at any point of time, and the only Truth is that it exists and makes all else possible, and the Entirety is perpetually changing, and cannot have an Absolute within itself, or OUT of "it" for that matter. Simple.

Although I seem to understand a great deal, if not all, as far as these kind of thoughts are concerned, I don't seem to understand how you see a dual-personality in me? Can you give me an example of my post where you see this? I'm really curious to know, as to what I say is why so confusing to others, so that I may try and say it differently. I know my English is not that good, but still, I think I can handle it quite ok.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Shatoush:
Sapius--
don't get excited...i will respond to your prepared post momentarily. i promise.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excited?! Where do you see me getting excited about anything I say, and in what sense? And what prepared post? Most of the time I struggle writing it on line, I have a T1 connection and is not very expensive.

Please respond, with something that could refute my prepared post logically, I am really open to knowledge, and am ready to change my opinion at any time. My sig line should tell you some thing about my flexibility and adaptability to new thoughts, and you will also never see me wanting someone else to follow what I say.




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....just IMHO though.

[Devil's Advocate]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sapius:

But in which direction of mental evolution you will end up, will result from the things your mind accepts and rejects, as thoughts and ideas, and as a thing, you have that choice, and there are many things that have been given certain liberty of choice; it is not only us humans that have "free-will" you know.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do we really have the choice in what our mind accepts and rejects? Are we not the product of history and of what those have "thought" before us? Meaning, do we ever have a unique thought? If no, I can not see how we can have free will - because if our thoughts are predetermined, our choices would seem to be as well.

I am curious as to what others think about this idea.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sapius:

So, free will exists and not at the same time, no contradictions. IF you see one, there is no outside logic that will convince you otherwise, it has to come through your own understanding.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry - I don't think I understood this section of your reply - can you clarify?


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