victims?

[SHATOUSHKA]

this is based off of the holocaust thread on
the acrop... but i felt it better to do it
here since i don't think it would be all that
wise to post it on the acrop. i don't really
know.

were the victims of the holocaust true 'victims'?

although there may have been some revolution
from the prisoners during the holocaust, do
you feel that most of the victims were true
victims if they were so compliant?

[soulfilms]

i don't think it was exactly sheep mentality that herded them all off to concentration camp. i think it was fear. if there was an uprising, you'd get shot for sure (or some other mode which would end in death) the chances of any sort of escape from some sort of marxist proliteriate revolt is so slim it was probably negligible considering the state of the prisoners physically and emotionally. one needs to be a very strong person in mind and in health to be able to stand up to german, aryian agressors with weapons. if you didn't do anything and just tried to wait it out, you might be able to survive. it might have been disillusion as to what was really going on or it might be that they were waiting for an allied rescue. in that sort of an environment (concentration camp), it is probably very important to blend in and not stand out. not to draw attention onto yourself.

it's easy to say things in hindsight. but when you're in that sort of situation, you can't see the full picture and can only rely on your own judgement on things from what you see in front of you.

i don't think that they are lesser 'victims' than if they'd try to defend themselves. i think a lot of people did, just not in overt, revolutionary ways. many bribed, women used their sexual influence and in effect, these were probably the most effective ways of escaping since it was covert and discrete. but this meant that those who did try to escape this way, left the camp by 'betraying' the other prisoners (betraying as in to leave them behind in a convert operation as betrayal). but in a survival situation, everyone is self centred and i certainly wouldn't blame their selfish ambitions of escape.

for how can a group of starving, dishevelled people rise against a group of ideologised, highly trained SS men?

perhaps if everyone knew there was no hope and they were going to die anyway, they would have mounted an attack since they'd nothing left to lose, but so long as they were alive and kept uninformed, there was always a sliver of hope.

[SHATOUSHKA]

this question of mine arrises from *again* the
movie 'the believer'.... in which there is a
scene where a holocaust survivor is retelling the
tale of one memory he has of the holocaust....
the day he was captured.

he states that he was attempting to leave *some place*
by way of a hay cart.... he and his 3 year old
son were hidden among the piles of hay loosely
piled in the cart.

they were, of course, stopped... and the germans
pilfered through the hay... discovering the
man and his son.

i do not remember if there was dialogue between
the man and the soldiers... but i assume there
was... prolly something to the effect of:

"take me... but let my son go free."

at this, one of the soldiers impaled the boy
with his bayonet and lifted the boy, still
impaled, high over their heads...

there may have been more german dialogue, but
again, i don't remember.

the man recalled that when the soldier held
his son in the air on the end of his bayonet,
the boy's blood freely fell... falling all
over the man's face. at this the man succumbed
to the germans.

in the movie, as the man is retelling this incident,
the main character jumps up... pissed off...
and yells at the man:

*a shotty rendition*

"why did you just stand there? why did you not
claw the soldier's eyes out with your fingers?
sure, you would have been killed... but its
certainly not as bad as the walking death you
have to face each day in memory of that scene."

**************************

granted, SF, hindsight blows. i also agree that
no one can predict their responses to scenarios
like that of nazi germany....
but this was the one scene in the entire movie
that really moved me. it was two worlds...
two emotions colliding.

yes... two extremes.