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Thread: Evidence

  1. #11
    Inactive Member Emmalina's Avatar
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    Though you may not think so, I do know what I am talking about, and I really am praying, right now for that matter, that the Lord will open your heart, and you will be willing to accept what I have posted as the truth, because it is, and I am trying so hard to make you understand because I care about you and your life and future, and want what is best for you. Why else do you think I come here? I come here because I care, just as our Heavenly Father cares for us in sending his own son to die on the cross so that we might be saved.

    ~Emma

  2. #12
    HB Forum Owner cebula_2005's Avatar
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    Originally posted by stormchaser:
    This argument has popped up in pretty much every thread here, so I'll make it a separate thread. Here are the only two arguments for God I've ever heard:

    The world is too complex to happen without a God.
    Actually, given the size of the universe(known to be either infinite or big enough for this to be true anyway) the odds are higher that everything that has happened would have at some point.

    Where did everything come from if not a God?
    Then where did God come from? You can say he was just "always there", but why does that make more sense than the universe having just been "always there"?


    I've never heard any proof for the Bible being the word of God. Please post any if you have it.

    See, there's no evidence against God, but there's no evidence for him. THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON YOU. Scientifically, if there's no evidence, it doesn't exist.

    That doesn't mean there's necessarily no God. There could still be one, but he just doesn't have any visible evidence. I just choose to believe that he isn't there because I've seen no reason for him to be there.

    Any more evidence you'd like to share?
    <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You say the world is "known" to be big enough for some cosmic bang to occur. How is it known? You don't believe anything you can't see for yourself. No one has explored the entire universe...no one has seen it. How come you believe that but not in God?

    Why is the burden of proof on us?

    There is plenty of evidence that you refuse to see. It's like bashing my head against a brick wall. I guess I really shouldn't be surprised. Even you who should see the proof and still don't believe were mentioned in the Bible. Even in the End Times there will be people who are visited by plagues and obvious manifestations of God's power and still they won't believe. Moses also dealt with unbelievers.

    Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
    "Lord, who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
    For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
    "He has blinded their eyes
    and deadened their hearts,
    so they can neither see with their eyes,
    nor understand with their hearts,
    nor turn?and I would heal them."[h] Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.
    ~John 12:37-41

  3. #13
    Inactive Member stormchaser's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Tra:
    You say the world is "known" to be big enough for some cosmic bang to occur. How is it known?
    <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What? I didn't mean the Big Bang. I meant planets forming and things. I mean, if the universe were the size of my basement with Big Bang would still be likely. Besides, we know it's that big because or telescopes reach out millions of light years(There's another thing - how could creationism be true if we can see stars 65 million light years away?)
    You don't believe anything you can't see for yourself. No one has explored the entire universe...no one has seen it. How come you believe that but not in God?
    <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We have seen it - at least enough to know that it's big enough. Besides, there is evidence for the big bang. We can still detect echoes of a massive explosion in space today.


    Why is the burden of proof on us?
    <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OH MY goodness. YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME. BECAUSE THERE'S NO PROOF! DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS? We don't have to prove there's no God any more than we have to prove that there's no giant invisible lava mouse hiding in Mount Vesuvius!
    There is plenty of evidence that you refuse to see. It's like bashing my head against a brick wall. I guess I really shouldn't be surprised. Even you who should see the proof and still don't believe were mentioned in the Bible.
    <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is making me feel physically ill. I'm not even kidding. I'm shaking. You have been saying that from the beginning - but NOT ONCE have you actually posted any! You certainly MENTION it enough - but what IS it? You keep just saying "the proof I've already posted" or "you wouldn't understand." I CREATED this thread as a place for you to post evidence - NOT as a place for you to CLAIM that you have! Really! Post some! Every time I've asked you to, you just say "There is evidence all around us..." without actually saying what it is! Please. I suppose that you have posted some "evidence", but even you seem to have admitted that I've debunked it in this thread.

    Look, God doesn't have to be proven for you to believe. I think it's good that you have such conviction. But I just wish that you would admit that your conviction ISN'T based on scientific fact!
    Even in the End Times there will be people who are visited by plagues and obvious manifestations of God's power and still they won't believe. Moses also dealt with unbelievers.
    <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Like what? Plagues? Obvious manifestation? When did that ever happen? Ohhh, New Orleans sure was sinful - but Shinto/Buddhist China!

    Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
    "Lord, who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
    <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, assuming Jesus actually existed, which there is no evidence for outside of the bible(care to post any?), you're right. They would have been being blind. But I choose to see Jesus as, even if he did exist, a really wise man. I think that if he existed, his miracles were made up to make him seem more holy - which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
    For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
    "He has blinded their eyes
    and deadened their hearts,
    so they can neither see with their eyes,
    nor understand with their hearts,
    nor turn?and I would heal them."[h] Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.
    ~John 12:37-41[/QB]
    <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">All done.

    Edited to take out the use of the Lord's name in vain.

    <font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 20, 2007 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Tra ]</font>

  4. #14
    HB Forum Owner cebula_2005's Avatar
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    Many historians agree that Jesus did exist. He also said in the Bible that He was the Son of Man and "I AM". Thus He is either God or a liar. I know that He is the Son of God.

    Ok, I will say this one more time. I have already posted proof. Sunrise, sunset, likelyhood of some cosmic big bang, complexity of the world, faith, trees, nature, everything that is good in the world. That's not enough for you. Fine. I accept that. That doesn't make it any less proof. Just not the kind of proof YOU want.

  5. #15
    Inactive Member KarmaIronic's Avatar
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    Okay...this is my evidence, and why I have not lived a day without believing in God. Religious systems have changed with time and knowledge, but never the fundamental belief that there is a God and He is good. (One of the two spiritual beliefs of mine that have never wavered - the existance of God and the law of karma)

    You can take all the science in the world and argue the creation of the universe down to a single grain of dust or an atom or a molecule, or just a single cell and I will accept that. (In Genesis seven days could mean seven units of time, not actual days, btw) But where did that single cell that began the universe come from? Where did the universe come from? That's why I have always believed in God.

  6. #16
    Inactive Member stormchaser's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Tra:
    Many historians agree that Jesus did exist. He also said in the Bible that He was the Son of Man and "I AM". Thus He is either God or a liar. I know that He is the Son of God.

    Ok, I will say this one more time. I have already posted proof. Sunrise, sunset, likelyhood of some cosmic big bang, complexity of the world, faith, trees, nature, everything that is good in the world. That's not enough for you. Fine. I accept that. That doesn't make it any less proof. Just not the kind of proof YOU want.
    <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Um ya... I'm going to assume to didn't read the first post then. That could easily have happened with no God. At least you didn't say your usual "There is plenty of proof" thing. Really, do the research. Scientifically, it could have happened. Even if it couldn't have, there's something called "The Lottery Fallacy." I think I may have posted it before.
    The idea is this: the odds of winning the jackpot WAY against you. In fact, if you drive into the next town to buy a lottery ticket, you are 16 times more likely to have a car crash on the way there than to win the jackpot. But let's suppose you do. That doesn't mean the lottery was rigged. See what I mean?

    As for Jesus: I also agree that he existed. I just think lots of his life, like the miraculous birth, is just a story.
    I'm glad you've come off of your "there is plenty of proof" thing. I'm serious, that was making me feel like I was going to barf.

    KarmaIronic, you too. Did you read my first post? You could argue that the first cell had to have come from somewhere, but then where did God come from?
    It's good to see someone a little more open on here. Thanks for providing a less painful Christian to argue with.

  7. #17
    Inactive Member KarmaIronic's Avatar
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    << KarmaIronic, you too. Did you read my first post? You could argue that the first cell had to have come from somewhere, but then where did God come from?
    It's good to see someone a little more open on here. Thanks for providing a less painful Christian to argue with. >>

    Well, thank you. I do try to be open minded. I did my share of searching so I feel everyone needs to go through that. I went from Catholic to Reform to Jewish to Wiccan to Pagan to Catholic. The only beliefs that have never been changed is the belief that God exists and God is good, and the belief in Karma...what goes around, comes around. I've seen many things to back up both beliefs, but no, most of them are not scientific.

    As for your question...I do see your point, but I'm not buying into it. Through out the ages new scientific theories come, are disproven or proven, and go. The belief in God has been with us since the dawn of civilization and will be with us until the end of mankind. The fact that you can go into the deepest jungle in Africa where they've never seen a book or a TV or been to church or any slight exposure to religion, and yet they believe in God says alot to me.

    And, here's another thing I love about my Catholic faith: we believe in the "Mystery of Faith", meaning that not everything has a cut and dry answer. Possibly because we're not supposed to know at this place and time in our exsistance. And possibly because faith wouldn't be a test if we could point to scientific data proving there is or is not a God.

    *shrug* I'm just going to follow my faith and let it help me to be the best person that I can be. And it does, so I cherish it.

  8. #18
    Inactive Member stormchaser's Avatar
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    Originally posted by KarmaIronic:

    As for your question...I do see your point, but I'm not buying into it. Through out the ages new scientific theories come, are disproven or proven, and go. The belief in God has been with us since the dawn of civilization and will be with us until the end of mankind. The fact that you can go into the deepest jungle in Africa where they've never seen a book or a TV or been to church or any slight exposure to religion, and yet they believe in God says alot to me.
    <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">True. However, people have a need to explain things. If they couldn't figure out where things came from, or how things work, they needed a God. That's where Genesis came from. (Yes, Tra. It is a scientific fact.) I'll add that to my first post.
    *shrug* I'm just going to follow my faith and let it help me to be the best person that I can be. And it does, so I cherish it.
    <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Man, you have no idea how much of a relifief it is to hear that after Tra's posts...
    [img]graemlins/gulp.gif[/img]

  9. #19
    Inactive Member KarmaIronic's Avatar
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    << Man, you have no idea how much of a relifief it is to hear that after Tra's posts... >>

    Don't knock Tra too much. I think we all have our own way of spreading the Good News. Some, like myself, are very subtle about it. Others, like Tra, are very loud about it. We're both doing the right thing, we just have different ways to attack it as we see fit being different people and denominations. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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