Let us not sit by as they erode our rights as Christians!

[cebula_2005]

You may consider me stupid. Consider this: it does not matter what you think. What matters is what IS. What's real. What's true. This is what I've been saying all along.

Are you sure 90% of Americans are Christians? Do 90% of Americans say they're Christians? If they do, does that make them Christian?
Whether you are looked down upon by 90 percent of the population or 10 percent of the population, it is wrong for them to look down upon you and any discrimination is wrong, no matter to what degree it is.

Since many people don't see the rock as solid, there's no reason to try to make them? Well... if you saw someone running at a brick wall repeatedly and bloodying their head wouldn't you try to stop him or her? Which is more cruel, to let them kill themselves or to try and convince them that the wall really is solid?

Sometimes it is wrong to let people do whatever they want. Especially if that causes harm to themselves or to others. And all sin, regardless of who sees it as a sin or how "small" a sin it is, harms people.

Being homosexual is a choice.

The Crusades, Inquisition, Salem witch trials, etc. were not done in love. But I don't consider the people who did that as loving. I don't consider them true Christians.

Christians are sinners too. Even true Christians will not be perfect. But you can't hold that against God, who is perfect and good.

I know there's a parent...God. And I know what His Word is...The Bible. I have faith...absolute, sure, undoubting, indesribably joyous, wonderful, miraculous faith. I know what I know. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[sharlit]

Originally posted by Tra:
Well... if you saw someone running at a brick wall repeatedly and bloodying their head wouldn't you try to stop him or her? Which is more cruel, to let them kill themselves or to try and convince them that the wall really is solid?

Sometimes it is wrong to let people do whatever they want. Especially if that causes harm to themselves or to others. And all sin, regardless of who sees it as a sin or how "small" a sin it is, harms people.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe it's more cruel to interfere. I believe people should be allowed to choose when they die. I see a huge difference between hurting oneself and hurting another. I am saying this because the way you stated the above quote sounds like you think everyone will agree with your point regardless of whether they are Christian. This is not the case, and I would recommend s******** this as part of your argument. This whole quote to me simply said, yet again, "I believe what the Bible says to be 100% truth."

I know there is no arguing with you because you just don't care about anyone's opinions, but I just wanted to let you know your argument was weak there.


Tra, have to ever thought about, "what if scientists prove there is a biological cause for homosexuality"? Have you thought about how you'd deal with that? Are there current scientific facts about the human body you don't believe?

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 03, 2006 02:58 AM: Message edited by: SarahS ]</font>

[stormchaser]

You may consider me stupid. Consider this: it does not matter what you think. What matters is what IS. What's real. What's true. This is what I've been saying all along.

Um.

Okay.

How relevant.

Are you sure 90% of Americans are Christians? Do 90% of Americans say they're Christians? If they do, does that make them Christian?

Yeah. It means they at least kind of practice their faith and at least kind of defend it. Or at least not attack it.

Whether you are looked down upon by 90 percent of the population or 10 percent of the population, it is wrong for them to look down upon you and any discrimination is wrong, no matter to what degree it is.

I agree, I suppose. But that's not my point. If ten percent of the population looks down on you, too bad, so sad, just ignore them. Ten percent cannot overthrow a stronger ninety percent.


Since many people don't see the rock as solid, there's no reason to try to make them?

Yep.

Well... if you saw someone running at a brick wall repeatedly and bloodying their head wouldn't you try to stop him or her? Which is more cruel, to let them kill themselves or to try and convince them that the wall really is solid?

What if they're running at a brick wall that's reeeaaaally far away, and no-one can see it, and this person doesn't even think it exists, and there's no evidence for it, and you think it's there because of blind faith... it's more cruel to clothesline him.


Sometimes it is wrong to let people do whatever they want. Especially if that causes harm to themselves or to others. And all sin, regardless of who sees it as a sin or how "small" a sin it is, harms people.

That's not my point. My point is that what's a sin to you isn't to them, and if they have no reason to believe they will be judged for it, let them go ahead.

Being homosexual is a choice.

LOOK. YOU SAID THE EXACT SAME THING IN THE LAST POST. One sentence. Zero backup. Plenty of dogma. And, as I said, GENES IMPLANTED INTO FRUIT FLIES THAT MAKES THEM GAY. GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD. Why does typing that down with no support make me believe you? Besides, the fruit flies beg to differ.

The Crusades, Inquisition, Salem witch trials, etc. were not done in love. But I don't consider the people who did that as loving. I don't consider them true Christians.

It doesn't matter whether they're true or not. They were still christians.


Christians are sinners too. Even true Christians will not be perfect. But you can't hold that against God, who is perfect and good.

I couldn't find what that was supposed to be relevant to.

I know there's a parent...God.

No, you don't. You believe there's a parent. I don't believe in God, but I"m not one to say whether or not he exists. I would consider there to be a 0% chance that there's a god... but at least I'm smart enough to know that that's my opinion, not written-in-stone truth.

And I know what His Word is...The Bible.
I have faith...absolute, sure, undoubting, indesribably joyous, wonderful, miraculous faith. I know what I know.

It's people like you who make me want to do horrible things with a cheese grater. You don't know that there's a god. Name me a piece of evidence and I will rip it to shreds. Name me a piece of evidence that the bible is the word of god and I will rip it to shreds. Name me a reason you have such undying faith and I will rip it to shreds. You "know" nothing. You believe a lot. I'm okay with that. Hardcore christian? Fine. Christian who "knows" there is a god? Christian who wants to convert others? Not fine.

[cebula_2005]

The point is not whether or not you agree with me. It doesn't matter what you believe, what matters is what IS. I guess if you want to bang your head against a brick wall, I can't stop you, but one day you'll wake up with a big headache.

As for the fruit flies...they had to ALTER the genes of the fruit flies to make them gay. It is NOT natural. It is a CHOICE.
If the Bible said something opposite of science, I would believe the Bible over science. So even if there were some sort of test that coudl "prove" that there was a genetic component for homosexuality, I woulnd't believe it. Not that there is any proof at all.

Let's say the man runnign at a brick wall is blind. He can't see the brick wall. But it is still there and going to hurt him when he runs into it. Wouldn't you try to stop him.

I do KNOW what I know. Even if it is just faith, you make it sound like faith is a bad thing, like it is somehow less than "proof" or anything like that. You believe in atoms, right? Protons, neutrons, electrons? Quarks? Well...no one has seen those either, they just think they're there because of the evidence that is shown by the actions of said atomic particles. It's the same with God. I may not see Him directly, but I see the evidence of Him in EVERYTHING GOOD. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Let me say this slowly. I've said it SO many times before and no one seems to listen. I understand that not everyone believes the same sort of things are sins. Not everyone believes in God. My point is IT DOES NOT MATTER. You can believe something that is not true all you want, that doesn't make it true. What is IS, not because I believe it, but because it IS. Sins are sins...whether you think so or not. God is real...whether you think so or not. And you may not agree with me...as you put it...how is that relevant?

[sharlit]

Originally posted by Tra:
As for the fruit flies...they had to ALTER the genes of the fruit flies to make them gay. It is NOT natural. It is a CHOICE.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wait a minute. You think people are gay because someone else chose them to be? The flies, the homosexuals in this scenario, had no choice. It was forced upon them. So homosexuals should suffer because someone else chose to make them homosexual? Was it their parents or peers or someone else they encountered?

[stormchaser]

The point is not whether or not you agree with me. It doesn't matter what you believe, what matters is what IS. I guess if you want to bang your head against a brick wall, I can't stop you, but one day you'll wake up with a big headache.

Um... ya... okay... once again, stating something does not make it true.

As for the fruit flies...they had to ALTER the genes of the fruit flies to make them gay. It is NOT natural. It is a CHOICE.

WHAT THE **** . Are you even reading what I'm saying are you expecting me to believe that, um, the fruit flies chose to have those genes implanted? Remember that Christian guy who was on conference calls with Bush? The one who turned out to be FAH-LAMING gay? The one who said that "that was a very dark part of him"? He was CHOOSING to be gay?


If the Bible said something opposite of science, I would believe the Bible over science. So even if there were some sort of test that coudl "prove" that there was a genetic component for homosexuality, I woulnd't believe it. Not that there is any proof at all.

1. There is proof. I just stated it.
2. Why?


Let's say the man runnign at a brick wall is blind. He can't see the brick wall. But it is still there and going to hurt him when he runs into it. Wouldn't you try to stop him.

Right, but if that's the case, then everyone's blind, it's just that some people think there's a brick wall anyway.


I do KNOW what I know. Even if it is just faith, you make it sound like faith is a bad thing, like it is somehow less than "proof" or anything like that. You believe in atoms, right? Protons, neutrons, electrons? Quarks? Well...no one has seen those either, they just think they're there because of the evidence that is shown by the actions of said atomic particles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_theory

Look it up, ********.


It's the same with God. I may not see Him directly, but I see the evidence of Him in EVERYTHING GOOD.

Ooh. Because nothing good could occur without some unseen giant entity with a big beard sitting up in heaven zapping up miracles.


Let me say this slowly. I've said it SO many times before and no one seems to listen. I understand that not everyone believes the same sort of things are sins. Not everyone believes in God. My point is IT DOES NOT MATTER. You can believe something that is not true all you want, that doesn't make it true. What is IS, not because I believe it, but because it IS. Sins are sins...whether you think so or not. God is real...whether you think so or not. And you may not agree with me...as you put it...how is that relevant?

I've listened. I've tried to say that YOU DON'T KNOW. You BELIEVE. You have said it is a matter of faith YOURSELF. Yet you think that the fact that you believe (or maybe, "KNOOOW!" BOOOOO!) it, you must make everyone else subscribe to that belief. Strong faith does not mean you KNOW it. You can be 100% sure in your mind that there is a god, just as I am 100% sure there isn't, but at least accept that THAT IS JUST YOU. NOT WRITTEN-IN-STONE SCIENTIFIC FACT.

[cebula_2005]

Stating something doesn't make it true...the fact that it is true has nothing to do with my statement of it.

The people who are gay are the ones who choose for them to be gay. What I said about them altering the genes just shows that it is not natural, not that being gay is forced upon anyone. Every sin is in some way a choice. Now, we do have sinful natures, so it is easy to sin (i.e. be gay) but it is a choice nonetheless.

I'm more sure about anythign the Bible says that even what I see with my own eyes.
Why do you insist on sayign there's no proof for God? There is plenty. (Take the human body and all the little things that must work just perfectly to make us live). God is more real than anything scientifically proven. He created science and everything that has been REALLY proven comes from Him. Thus... which is more real, the created thing or the One who created it?

No, not everyone's blind. Some people can see the brick wall and are trying to guide others around it.

God is more real than "written-in-stone scientific fact". His existance is written in stone while some scientific "facts" are not.

[stormchaser]

he point is not whether or not you agree with me. It doesn't matter what you believe, what matters is what IS. I guess if you want to bang your head against a brick wall, I can't stop you, but one day you'll wake up with a big headache.

As for the fruit flies...they had to ALTER the genes of the fruit flies to make them gay. It is NOT natural. It is a CHOICE.
If the Bible said something opposite of science, I would believe the Bible over science. So even if there were some sort of test that coudl "prove" that there was a genetic component for homosexuality, I woulnd't believe it. Not that there is any proof at all.

Let's say the man runnign at a brick wall is blind. He can't see the brick wall. But it is still there and going to hurt him when he runs into it. Wouldn't you try to stop him.

I do KNOW what I know. Even if it is just faith, you make it sound like faith is a bad thing, like it is somehow less than "proof" or anything like that. You believe in atoms, right? Protons, neutrons, electrons? Quarks? Well...no one has seen those either, they just think they're there because of the evidence that is shown by the actions of said atomic particles. It's the same with God. I may not see Him directly, but I see the evidence of Him in EVERYTHING GOOD.

Let me say this slowly. I've said it SO many times before and no one seems to listen. I understand that not everyone believes the same sort of things are sins. Not everyone believes in God. My point is IT DOES NOT MATTER. You can believe something that is not true all you want, that doesn't make it true. What is IS, not because I believe it, but because it IS. Sins are sins...whether you think so or not. God is real...whether you think so or not. And you may not agree with me...as you put it...how is that relevant?

I'm not going to respond to this one statement by statement because it is a CARBON COPY of your last post. Instead I'm going to try to make you understand this.

You believe in god very, very, strongly. You are 100% sure there is a God. The thought of there not being a God has never crossed your mind. That's fine. But you have to accept, THAT. IS. JUST. YOU. You've said a million times, "what matters isn't what you believe, it's what is." But if you had any kind of sense at all you would accept that WHETHER OR NOT you KNOW there is a God, it is not fact. It may be fact in your mind. But it isn't. You may be right. Even if you have some sort of GOD-INSPIRED belief, and your beliefs are EXACTLY true, then again, I KNOW what I had for lunch today. Suppose someone doesn't believe me. Well, that person doesn't know. **** , maybe I have amnesia and I don't even know. Why should he suffer for it. You keep saying, "I've said this a hundred times and no-one seems to listen". I listen. Really. Just PROVE TO ME THAT THERE IS A GOD and your point will be valid, because I don't know what you had for lunch today, and you can't expect me to believe that you ate lunch just by saying you did. That is all I ask. If you want me to believe you, give me a reason to.

Hang on, what are you doing? Here are your last two posts. Look what I've bold-ed.


You may consider me stupid. Consider this: it does not matter what you think. What matters is what IS. What's real. What's true. This is what I've been saying all along.

Are you sure 90% of Americans are Christians? Do 90% of Americans say they're Christians? If they do, does that make them Christian?
Whether you are looked down upon by 90 percent of the population or 10 percent of the population, it is wrong for them to look down upon you and any discrimination is wrong, no matter to what degree it is.

Since many people don't see the rock as solid, there's no reason to try to make them? Well... if you saw someone running at a brick wall repeatedly and bloodying their head wouldn't you try to stop him or her? Which is more cruel, to let them kill themselves or to try and convince them that the wall really is solid?

Sometimes it is wrong to let people do whatever they want. Especially if that causes harm to themselves or to others. And all sin, regardless of who sees it as a sin or how "small" a sin it is, harms people.

Being homosexual is a choice.

The Crusades, Inquisition, Salem witch trials, etc. were not done in love. But I don't consider the people who did that as loving. I don't consider them true Christians.

Christians are sinners too. Even true Christians will not be perfect. But you can't hold that against God, who is perfect and good.

I know there's a parent...God. And I know what His Word is...The Bible. I have faith...absolute, sure, undoubting, indesribably joyous, wonderful, miraculous faith. I know what I know.


e point is not whether or not you agree with me. It doesn't matter what you believe, what matters is what IS. I guess if you want to bang your head against a brick wall, I can't stop you, but one day you'll wake up with a big headache.

As for the fruit flies...they had to ALTER the genes of the fruit flies to make them gay. It is NOT natural. It is a CHOICE.
If the Bible said something opposite of science, I would believe the Bible over science. So even if there were some sort of test that coudl "prove" that there was a genetic component for homosexuality, I woulnd't believe it. Not that there is any proof at all.

This I will respond to. I thought I already had. First of all, where does the bible say homosexuality is a choice? References to homosexuality at all are arguable, and I've never even heard a christian say that the bible says its a choice. Second, why? Really, there comes a point when faith is faith and knowledge is knowledge and I think you are blurring them too far.

Let's say the man runnign at a brick wall is blind. He can't see the brick wall. But it is still there and going to hurt him when he runs into it. Wouldn't you try to stop him.

I do KNOW what I know. Even if it is just faith, you make it sound like faith is a bad thing, like it is somehow less than "proof" or anything like that. You believe in atoms, right? Protons, neutrons, electrons? Quarks? Well...no one has seen those either, they just think they're there because of the evidence that is shown by the actions of said atomic particles. It's the same with God. I may not see Him directly, but I see the evidence of Him in EVERYTHING GOOD.

Let me say this slowly. I've said it SO many times before and no one seems to listen. I understand that not everyone believes the same sort of things are sins. Not everyone believes in God. My point is IT DOES NOT MATTER. You can believe something that is not true all you want, that doesn't make it true. What is IS, not because I believe it, but because it IS. Sins are sins...whether you think so or not. God is real...whether you think so or not. And you may not agree with me...as you put it...how is that relevant?


Hmm, I must have not replied to this when I meant to. Just look up atomic theory on Wikipedia. There's plenty of evidence.

Notice anything about the bold text? You're just repeating yourself. I respond, then instead of replying to me reply, you restate yourself. Oh, she said it again! That must mean she's right!

[stormchaser]

he point is not whether or not you agree with me. It doesn't matter what you believe, what matters is what IS. I guess if you want to bang your head against a brick wall, I can't stop you, but one day you'll wake up with a big headache.

As for the fruit flies...they had to ALTER the genes of the fruit flies to make them gay. It is NOT natural. It is a CHOICE.
If the Bible said something opposite of science, I would believe the Bible over science. So even if there were some sort of test that coudl "prove" that there was a genetic component for homosexuality, I woulnd't believe it. Not that there is any proof at all.

Let's say the man runnign at a brick wall is blind. He can't see the brick wall. But it is still there and going to hurt him when he runs into it. Wouldn't you try to stop him.

I do KNOW what I know. Even if it is just faith, you make it sound like faith is a bad thing, like it is somehow less than "proof" or anything like that. You believe in atoms, right? Protons, neutrons, electrons? Quarks? Well...no one has seen those either, they just think they're there because of the evidence that is shown by the actions of said atomic particles. It's the same with God. I may not see Him directly, but I see the evidence of Him in EVERYTHING GOOD.

Let me say this slowly. I've said it SO many times before and no one seems to listen. I understand that not everyone believes the same sort of things are sins. Not everyone believes in God. My point is IT DOES NOT MATTER. You can believe something that is not true all you want, that doesn't make it true. What is IS, not because I believe it, but because it IS. Sins are sins...whether you think so or not. God is real...whether you think so or not. And you may not agree with me...as you put it...how is that relevant?

I'm not going to respond to this one statement by statement because it is a CARBON COPY of your last post. Instead I'm going to try to make you understand this.

You believe in god very, very, strongly. You are 100% sure there is a God. The thought of there not being a God has never crossed your mind. That's fine. But you have to accept, THAT. IS. JUST. YOU. You've said a million times, "what matters isn't what you believe, it's what is." But if you had any kind of sense at all you would accept that WHETHER OR NOT you KNOW there is a God, it is not fact. It may be fact in your mind. But it isn't. You may be right. Even if you have some sort of GOD-INSPIRED belief, and your beliefs are EXACTLY true, then again, I KNOW what I had for lunch today. Suppose someone doesn't believe me. Well, that person doesn't know. **** , maybe I have amnesia and I don't even know. Why should he suffer for it. You keep saying, "I've said this a hundred times and no-one seems to listen". I listen. Really. Just PROVE TO ME THAT THERE IS A GOD and your point will be valid, because I don't know what you had for lunch today, and you can't expect me to believe that you ate lunch just by saying you did. That is all I ask. If you want me to believe you, give me a reason to.

Hang on, what are you doing? Here are your last two posts. Look what I've bold-ed.


You may consider me stupid. Consider this: it does not matter what you think. What matters is what IS. What's real. What's true. This is what I've been saying all along.

Are you sure 90% of Americans are Christians? Do 90% of Americans say they're Christians? If they do, does that make them Christian?
Whether you are looked down upon by 90 percent of the population or 10 percent of the population, it is wrong for them to look down upon you and any discrimination is wrong, no matter to what degree it is.

Since many people don't see the rock as solid, there's no reason to try to make them? Well... if you saw someone running at a brick wall repeatedly and bloodying their head wouldn't you try to stop him or her? Which is more cruel, to let them kill themselves or to try and convince them that the wall really is solid?

Sometimes it is wrong to let people do whatever they want. Especially if that causes harm to themselves or to others. And all sin, regardless of who sees it as a sin or how "small" a sin it is, harms people.

Being homosexual is a choice.

The Crusades, Inquisition, Salem witch trials, etc. were not done in love. But I don't consider the people who did that as loving. I don't consider them true Christians.

Christians are sinners too. Even true Christians will not be perfect. But you can't hold that against God, who is perfect and good.

I know there's a parent...God. And I know what His Word is...The Bible. I have faith...absolute, sure, undoubting, indesribably joyous, wonderful, miraculous faith. I know what I know.


e point is not whether or not you agree with me. It doesn't matter what you believe, what matters is what IS. I guess if you want to bang your head against a brick wall, I can't stop you, but one day you'll wake up with a big headache.

As for the fruit flies...they had to ALTER the genes of the fruit flies to make them gay. It is NOT natural. It is a CHOICE.
If the Bible said something opposite of science, I would believe the Bible over science. So even if there were some sort of test that coudl "prove" that there was a genetic component for homosexuality, I woulnd't believe it. Not that there is any proof at all.

This I will respond to. I thought I already had. First of all, where does the bible say homosexuality is a choice? References to homosexuality at all are arguable, and I've never even heard a christian say that the bible says its a choice. Second, why? Really, there comes a point when faith is faith and knowledge is knowledge and I think you are blurring them too far. Third of all, tell me. Were those fruit flies "choosing" to be gay? To gays say at birth, hmm, I think I'd like to be gay. I'll implant that gene now.

Let's say the man runnign at a brick wall is blind. He can't see the brick wall. But it is still there and going to hurt him when he runs into it. Wouldn't you try to stop him.

I do KNOW what I know. Even if it is just faith, you make it sound like faith is a bad thing, like it is somehow less than "proof" or anything like that. You believe in atoms, right? Protons, neutrons, electrons? Quarks? Well...no one has seen those either, they just think they're there because of the evidence that is shown by the actions of said atomic particles. It's the same with God. I may not see Him directly, but I see the evidence of Him in EVERYTHING GOOD.

Let me say this slowly. I've said it SO many times before and no one seems to listen. I understand that not everyone believes the same sort of things are sins. Not everyone believes in God. My point is IT DOES NOT MATTER. You can believe something that is not true all you want, that doesn't make it true. What is IS, not because I believe it, but because it IS. Sins are sins...whether you think so or not. God is real...whether you think so or not. And you may not agree with me...as you put it...how is that relevant?


Hmm, I must have not replied to this when I meant to. Just look up atomic theory on Wikipedia. There's plenty of evidence.

Notice anything about the bold text? You're just repeating yourself. I respond, then instead of replying to me reply, you restate yourself. Oh, she said it again! That must mean she's right!

[zozey]

His Existence is written in stone while some scientific "facts" are not.

Do you have this stone? Does anyone have this stone? I don't think so. "His" existence is written on paper. And so is the existence of the great whangdoodles, but do you think that they exist do you? And those scientific "facts" aren't written in stone because we don't write in stone anymore.

Why do you insist on sayign there's no proof for God? There is plenty. (Take the human body and all the little things that must work just perfectly to make us live).

Do you really beleive that there is a big guy in the sky who said "Zap!" and then there was life? There is more proof that we exist (and everything else around us exists)because of evolution. We evolved this way. We have far more evidence of this being why we are here than because of God.
About your first post. You are joking right? As previously stated Children are allowed to pray at school, they simply don't have organized time for it. And you know why they don't? Because not everyone who goes to schools are Christian, or even religous! This from a person of the religion that won't let groups of Muslims gather for a holiday because they might be terrorists bent on destroying all Christians?
You are not being opressed. If I was to choose any religion that was being opressed I would not choose Christianity. If I were to choose the "Opressers" I would choose Christians. Not necessarily you, but for one religion, Christianity.