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Thread: Lesson #3 - Symbol

  1. #1
    HB Forum Owner MrBranchAPLit's Avatar
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    A symbol may be roughly defined as something that means more than it is. Image, metaphor, and symbol shade into each other and are sometimes difficult to distinguish. In general, however, an image means only what it is; teh figurative term in a metaphor means something other than what it is; and a symbol means what it is and something more, too. A symbol, that is, functions literally and figuratively at the same time.

    Perrine's "Sound and Sense" (80)

    Read the following poem and then answer the questions:

    To the Virgins, to Make Much of Time
    by Robert Herrick

    Gather ye rosebuds while ye may,
    Old time is still a-flying;
    And the same flower that smiles today
    Tomorrow will be dying.

    The glorious lamp of heaven the sun,
    The higher he's a-getting,
    The sooner will his race be run,
    And nearer he's to setting.

    That age is best which is the first,
    When youth and blood are warmer;
    But being spent, the worse, and worst
    Times still succeed the former.

    Then be not coy, but use your time,
    And, while ye may, go marry;
    For, having lost but once your prime,
    You may forever tarry.


    1. The first two stanzas might be interpreted literally if the third and fourth stanzas did not force us to interpret them symbollically. What do the rosebuds symbolize (stanza 1)? what does the course of a day symbolize (stanza 2)? Does the poet narrow teh meaning of the rosebud symbol in the last stanza or merely name one of its specific meanings?

    2. How does the title help us interpret the meaning of the symbol? Why is "virgins" a more meaningful word than, for example, maidens?

    3. Why is such haste necessary in gathering the rosebuds? True, the blossoms die quickly, but they are replaced by others. Who really is dying?

    4. What are "the worse, worst" times? Why?

    5. Why is the wording of the poem better than these possible alternatives: blooms for "smiles", course for "race", used for "spent", spend for "use"?

    Perrine's "Sound and Sense" (87)

    <font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 23, 2008 08:38 PM: Message edited by: Mr Branch ]</font>

  2. #2
    Inactive Member lucas89a's Avatar
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    1. The rosemary simbolizes the woman's virginity. Flower as a representation of virginity is an archetype. The course of the day means the course of life and in more modern terms your biological clock. In the last two stanzas the poet definitely more direct on the meaning and general message (I do think the poet narrows the sybolism in these last stanzas).
    2. The title of the poem gives away the symbolism; it is a summary of the message.
    Virgins are more meaningful than maidens because virgins denote a much more pure and innocent look. A maiden is just an unwed woman, not necessarily a virgin.
    3. Such haste is necessary because or else time will catch on and women won't be able to have babies and all. Each rosebud represents a woman's virginity and all other feminisms. When a rosebud dies a woman dies as well.
    4. The worst times would be when you can't have sex anymore (can't give birth). It's a very big deal for a woman to have a child (since that is their biological role in nature).
    5. The words, I see, are meticulosuly chosen to express an exact feeling. The alternatives mean the same things as the original words, but they also mean something else, something extra that doesn't go with the poem. The original words mean what they have to mean.

  3. #3
    Inactive Member mariaceleste's Avatar
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    1. The first two stanzas might be interpreted literally if the third and fourth stanzas did not force us to interpret them symbollically. What do the rosebuds symbolize (stanza 1)? what does the course of a day symbolize (stanza 2)? Does the poet narrow teh meaning of the rosebud symbol in the last stanza or merely name one of its specific meanings?

    The rosebuds function as a symbol of a women?s virginity. The lines of the first stanza exhort women to ?seize the day? as ?old time is a-flying?. In the second stanza the course of a day symbolizes a person?s life span and the sun?s setting, a person?s death. I think that the poet does narrow the meaning of the rosebud symbol, yet that does not mean that the poem?s theme- carpe diem- does not apply to other facets of life. Lines like ?Then be not coy?, alluding to a women?s pretense of modesty and shyness, give a sense that the rosebud symbol is specific to a women?s virginity.


    2. How does the title help us interpret the meaning of the symbol? Why is "virgins" a more meaningful word than, for example, maidens?

    Rosebuds, the unopened flowers of roses, have a figurative connotation- a women?s virginity. The title may help a hesitant reader confirm that the rosebuds really do function as a symbol of a women?s chastity. Though a maiden maybe and is most likely a virgin, the word virgin has a more precise connotation.


    3. Why is such haste necessary in gathering the rosebuds? True, the blossoms die quickly, but they are replaced by others. Who really is dying?

    There is such haste to gather the rosebuds, because youth is short-lived. Time exhausts the youth of women and eventually, after they reached old age, ?the sun sets?.


    4. What are "the worse, worst" times? Why?

    The ?worse, worst? times are the moments when one reaches old age. To a society that extols youth, aging is a punishment. And those that do not embrace their youth, like the women that are coy, experience regret once they've reach old age.


    5. Why is the wording of the poem better than these possible alternatives: blooms for "smiles", course for "race", used for "spent", spend for "use"?

    ?Smiles? is a better word than blossoms because it attributes human qualities to the rosebuds; it personifies them. Plus, although the word ?blossoms? does also tend to have a positive connotation, the word ?smiles? directly elicits the idea of happiness.
    ?Race? is a better word than ?course? because it denotes the speed with which things happen.
    The word ?spent? refers to something that has been used and cannot be used again. However, saying that something has been ?used? does not imply that it can no longer be used again. For this reason ?spent? functions better; because it gives a sense that those best years are gone and cannot be regained or relived.
    I tend to associate a bit of carelessness to the word ?spend?. I may spend my time roaming around the streets of Paris. But the word ?use? (to me) gives a sense of employing something in a thoughtful, careful manner. I use my time to walk around the streets of Paris. I think that when we ?use? something we do so with a purpose, whereas we may futilely spend our time doing something else.

  4. #4
    Inactive Member dainkelly's Avatar
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    1.the rosebuds smbolyze sex, especially female sex and virginity, the course of the day symbolizes your physical body and how you grow to a certain point but eventually you become old and decay until you die. I think the last stanza narrows the poem down to the point of it which is live up to your youth before time is up, but with a sexual point of view, emphasized by the title and first stanza.

    2.The Title of the story emphazises the sexual part of the youth, and I think that the word virgins is better than maiden, because it is much more general, and grasps sex with youth whereas maiden only speaks of the sexual part of youth.

    3.There is haste to gather the blossoms quikly because youth is really the best time to be alive and you have to experience as much as possible before it runs out. once it runs out so many possibilyties run out and your boddy and mind do essencially die.

    4.The Worst times are those of old age, in whch you are handicapped by your own body and are unable to do everything you could suring your youth.

    5. blooms for "smiles": Blooms refrences flowers, which are the archetype for womens sexuallity, which is the focus of th poem
    course for "race": Course is a better word because race has a sense of competition, while course is more personal, and the point of the poem isnt to have as much sex as possible, but it asks for the person to explore their sensuality as soon and as extensively as possible.
    used for "spent": Spent would give the reader a sense that it is unusable anymore, while used gives you the sense that it can still be used, it just wont be as good or meaningful.

  5. #5
    Inactive Member mariecburt's Avatar
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    1. The first two stanzas might be interpreted literally if the third and fourth stanzas did not force us to interpret them symbollically. What do the rosebuds symbolize (stanza 1)? what does the course of a day symbolize (stanza 2)? Does the poet narrow teh meaning of the rosebud symbol in the last stanza or merely name one of its specific meanings?

    Rosebuds symbolize the daily experiences of life. The course of a day symbolizes life, and life is symbolized as a race. I think the author is just merely naming one of the specific meanings because I think the poem can be analyzed in many different ways.

    2. How does the title help us interpret the meaning of the symbol? Why is "virgins" a more meaningful word than, for example, maidens?

    The word virgin shows naivite and innocence, and the word maidens (in my opinion) represents an old maid or something of the sort. The word virgin is more related with youth and opportunity, which is what this poem is about.

    3. Why is such haste necessary in gathering the rosebuds? True, the blossoms die quickly, but they are replaced by others. Who really is dying?

    What is dying is time, youth, and opportunity, something that once is gone you can never get back.

    4. What are "the worse, worst" times? Why?

    The worst, worst time is adulthood, when there is no opportunity and innocence, everything is structured and cold.

    5. Why is the wording of the poem better than these possible alternatives: blooms for "smiles", course for "race", used for "spent", spend for "use"?

    When using the word smile, it ties into the same theme of youth and thinking out of the ordinary, and thinking that anything is possible, even for a flower to smile. I really liked how he used the word race instead of course because the race also symbolizes the race against time. I think the word spent has more a meaning of once its spent its gone, and use is more something that you can use over and over again.

  6. #6
    Inactive Member montanaro.g's Avatar
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    To the Virgins, to Make Much of Time
    by Robert Herrick
    Gather ye rosebuds while ye may,
    Old time is still a-flying;
    And the same flower that smiles today
    Tomorrow will be dying.
    The glorious lamp of heaven the sun,
    The higher he's a-getting,
    The sooner will his race be run,
    And nearer he's to setting.
    That age is best which is the first,
    When youth and blood are warmer;
    But being spent, the worse, and worst
    Times still succeed the former.
    Then be not coy, but use your time,
    And, while ye may, go marry;
    For, having lost but once your prime,
    You may forever tarry.

    1. The first two stanzas might be interpreted literally if the third and fourth stanzas did not force us to interpret them symbolically. What do the rosebuds symbolize (stanza 1)? what does the course of a day symbolize (stanza 2)? Does the poet narrow the meaning of the rosebud symbol in the last stanza or merely name one of its specific meanings?
    The use of the word ?rosebuds? in the poem symbolizes the virginity of a woman, as well as the fecundity of a woman during puberty. ?Rosebuds? in the first stanza symbolizes time, since it is urging the reader to keep time in mind when doing something since time is something we cannot spare. The course of a day in the second stanza symbolizes the trajectory of life by comparing it to the trajectory of the sun in a day. We start low, then reaching noon (top, puberty) to only return to where we started (death). The meaning of the rosebuds is not narrowed in the last stanza, but instead he makes it stand out in the last stanza by making reference to a women?s virginity.
    2. How does the title help us interpret the meaning of the symbol? Why is "virgins" a more meaningful word than, for example, maidens?
    The title of the poem helps us interpret the symbolism of a women?s pureness because one associates chastity with the Virgin Mary, while using maiden instead of virgin might also mean that a woman is a virgin, but it would not have the effect of using virgin, which is often used to refer to a woman?s chastity.
    3. Why is such haste necessary in gathering the rosebuds? True, the blossoms die quickly, but they are replaced by others. Who really is dying?
    There is much haste in gathering rosebuds because women are not always young. Youth is part of our life and it is short lived. With time, a women?s sexual desires decline, ending with a women?s death.
    4. What are "the worse, worst" times? Why?
    ?The worse, the worst? times refers to the old age, when one can no longer experience the benefits of being young (sex). Being old is considered ?the worse, worst? times because you are closer to death than when being young.
    5. Why is the wording of the poem better than these possible alternatives: blooms for "smiles", course for "race", used for "spent", spend for "use"?
    The usage of words like blooms instead of ?smiles? or course instead of ?race? helps personify the idea the author is trying to convey through the poem.

  7. #7
    Inactive Member mrodriguez's Avatar
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    1. The first two stanzas might be interpreted literally if the third and fourth stanzas did not force us to interpret them symbollically. What do the rosebuds symbolize (stanza 1)? what does the course of a day symbolize (stanza 2)? Does the poet narrow teh meaning of the rosebud symbol in the last stanza or merely name one of its specific meanings?

    The rosebuds symbolize a woman's virginity. The course of the day is the course of life. The poet does not narrow the rosebud symbol in the last stanza, but I believe the the rosebud can be best equated to a symbol of virginity for the full meaning of the last stanza.

    2. How does the title help us interpret the meaning of the symbol? Why is "virgins" a more meaningful word than, for example, maidens?

    The title directly gives away the symbol of the rosebud. Virgins is more meaningful because a virgin is inoccent while a maiden is not necessarily. A virgin is thought of as pure, while a maiden is not.

    3. Why is such haste necessary in gathering the rosebuds? True, the blossoms die quickly, but they are replaced by others. Who really is dying?

    This refers to the passing of time, which can never be recovered. In reality youth is dying, which according to the poem is the best times.

    4. What are "the worse, worst" times? Why?

    Being old is the worse, worst times. The older you are, the farther you get away from your prime which is your youth.

    5. Why is the wording of the poem better than these possible alternatives: blooms for "smiles", course for "race", used for "spent", spend for "use"?

    blooms: This is better of the two because it goes with the whole flower theme in the poem.

    race: This word is better because it highlights how quick life goes by whereas course does not.

    used: This is better because spent things cant be used again.

    use: This is better because using means taking advantage of while spending is wasting.

  8. #8
    Inactive Member alexiacalo's Avatar
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    To the Virgins, to Make Much of Time
    by Robert Herrick

    Gather ye rosebuds while ye may,
    Old time is still a-flying;
    And the same flower that smiles today
    Tomorrow will be dying.

    The glorious lamp of heaven the sun,
    The higher he's a-getting,
    The sooner will his race be run,
    And nearer he's to setting.

    That age is best which is the first,
    When youth and blood are warmer;
    But being spent, the worse, and worst
    Times still succeed the former.

    Then be not coy, but use your time,
    And, while ye may, go marry;
    For, having lost but once your prime,
    You may forever tarry.


    1. The rosebuds symbolizes a young girl which is connected to purity and virginity. A flower is a popular representation of women and while a blooming flower represents a mature woman it is natural for a rosebud, which is an unopened flower, to represent a young girl or in this case a virgin. The course of day represents life and as the day wears out so does the life and the body. Finally the setting sun symbolizes death. The meaning of rosebuds in the last stanza is not narrowed. Although the author's word choice places a certain emphasis on youth and sexuality, the poem can be interpreted in many different ways.
    2. The title helps confirm the symbolism to virginity. A maiden is simply an unwed woman not really confirming her purity and innocence while the word "virgin" does.
    3. Haste is necessary since youth fades away and once it is lost it is lost forever.
    4. "The worse, worst" times is the old age. While youth is healthy and alive, being old is associated with sickness and death.
    5. These words help personify the poem making the actions more "human" in a manner of speaking. Words such as "smile" and "race" are human actions creating more connections to human attributes.

    <font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 31, 2008 11:29 PM: Message edited by: alexiacalo ]</font>

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    Inactive Member RodrigoCC's Avatar
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    1. In the first stanza, rosebuds symbolize virginity. For a woman to be deflowered is for her to lose her virginity. The reference to day is a reference to life and the time one has left. I think the author adds on to the virginity symbol in a way. The last stanza puts a slightly different perspective on it but he basically says that she should enjoy life while she can but to wait for the perfect moment or else she will tarry.

    2. The title virgins gives us a clue from the start for what direction we need to look to analyze the poem. This poem talks about virginity and its title will assure the reader that what he/she reads is what he/she thinks.

    3. Haste is necessary in gathering rosebuds because time is running out. What is dying is youth and the woman's prime.

    4. The worst times are when a woman can no longer give birth. Being the woman's primarily role in nature, she will have lost all attractiveness towards her because people get married to procreate for the most part.

    5. Smiles is something that completely brings in a positive feeling. Race is a word that replaces course and does more. Race brings a sense of necessary speed and wanting to finish. Used is better because spent is a word that means it has gone to waste completely.

  10. #10
    Inactive Member alberto_dacosta's Avatar
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    1) The word "rosebud" is symbolic of a woman's virginity. The course of a day described in the second stanza is symbolic of a person's lifetime, with the rising sun representing one's approach to his or her prime and the setting sun representing the person's gradual aging. The last stanza does narrow the symbolism of the word "rosebud", particularly since it emphasizes that a person must not be coy, or falsely innocent, and proactively seek to "go marry" so that they do not "tarry" after they have "lost...[their] prime".

    2. The fact that the poem's title mentions virginity clearly gives the reader a certain spectrum of options within which to examine possible symbols. As a result, it becomes easy to identify the "rosebud" symbolism when the author suggests what the poem's theme is related to. The word "virgins" is more meaningful than "maidens" because, while both words share a meaning, the word "maiden" also alludes to innocence, aristocracy, and other concepts that are not necessarily specifically tied to this poem's theme.

    3. The emphasis the poem's voice puts in the necessity to gather rosebuds stems from the fact that this poem speaks to the individual, not to the group. While an entire group creates younger generations to live in its stead, an individual is never given a second chance: he has one youth with which to gather rosebuds, and he must thus enjoy it to the greatest extent before it trickles away.

    4. "The worse, and worst times" is a reference to old age, when an individual is condemned to contemplate others' ability to do what he once could and no longer can. Once one's youth is spent, he or she can do nothing else but regret the fact that said youth is gone.

    5. The word "smiles" is better suited than the word "blooms" because it more effectively reflects a sense of identification (at both a human and an instinctual level, given that a smile conveys some sense of warmth or belonging). Additionally, it adds to the apparent opposition between the summer or morning of youth and the happy smiles that result and the winter or night of old age that only evokes frowns. The word "race" is more appropriate than the word "course" because it impresses a sense of urgency, exactly what the poem's voice hopes to evoke when it urges the individual to enjoy his youth as much as he can. The word "spent" is more appropriate than the word "used" because it places special emphasis on the notion that what has used is effectively gone, whereas the alternative simply evokes the individual's use of his youth. Finally, the use of the word "use" is more appropriate in the context of the poem than the word "spend" because it stresses the necessity to employ time, whereas the word "spend" connotes "wasting" and, as a result, is antagonistic to the poem's theme.

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