Some discussion points

**jumper69** · February 17th, 2006, 09:04 PM

I didn't call you a dork Raven! [img]smile.gif[/img]

**Raven Soul** · February 17th, 2006, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by Law Dawg:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Are you telling me that all of Germany accepted this behavior? Are you saying that all Germans believed as Hitler did? All Germans wanted to see the death of the Jews?

Nope.....in fact Nazi's as a political party comprised a very small part of Germany's population. However, why is it that the concentration camps were only discovered in 1945, a full 5 years after the war started?

While the majority of the population were not Nazi's they certainly were, at least, complicit in the Holicaust.

So how is that any different than the situation we find ourselves in today? Only a small fraction of Muslims are being assholes and yet practically a whole religion basically sits on their camels and does nothing?<hr /></blockquote>Your points are quite valid, and to be honest, why isn't there more news of outrage? I am not sure. Maybe the media is to blame. Is it? Who knows, but I do feel like our news outlets only let us know of the awful things that are happening. Plus, with that being said, it is a double sided coin, how come we never hear about schools being built and the people that thank us for being in Iraq? Is it because our news outlets only want us to hear what they want? Outrage in the Muslim world is out there, but like all the good things we have done in Iraq, you have to really want to see it apparently.

**Piña** · February 17th, 2006, 10:24 PM

LD

Okay, let me try again.

Here?s what I heard when I read your postings.

You?re upset that Muslims aren?t doing their part and coming forward to turn in their ?bad? brethern and are therefore ?part of the problem? and that they are at least partly culpable for the acts of the ?bad muslims.?

I?m still not clear what the defining characteristics of a ?bad muslim? are and feel that if we?re going to intelligently discuss this that we might want to pin that down. Are we talking about ?terrorists? that fly planes into American buildings, ?insurgents? that are conducting guerilla warfare against the US military in Iraq, members of AlQuida in covert cells in this country, Al Quida in overt operations in Afganistan, Al Quida in damn near every country on the planet? Just who are these ?bad Muslims??

I guess it goes hand and hand with the above that it?s also unclear as to which acts we think the ?bad Muslims? should be turned in for. And to whom should they be turned in?

I?m also not clear about which group of, I guess we?ll have to call them, ?good Muslims? that we are upset with for not doing their part. Who and where are they. Are we talking about every Muslim on the planet or just those who actually witness some as yet undefined ?bad? act. Do we differentiate between different sects or split them up geographically or what?

I think that?s enough to start with.

**Piña** · February 17th, 2006, 10:33 PM

Hey GL

Pretty close to the beginning of this thread I asked if you would define "outrage". I was wondering what you meant by it in your posting.

You haven't had the courtesy of responding to my request. May I ask why?

**reason** · February 18th, 2006, 03:11 AM

Both Raven AND GL make good cases....HOWEVER...

GL did not make a good case. He stated he was not a racist, then followed that up with a laundry list of absolutes, claiming no muslim outrage EVER.

Raven comes back and shoots him down point blank.

I can't think of a more clear cut slam dunk blow out on this board that's happened in this manner in a very long time.

**Raven Soul** · February 18th, 2006, 03:33 AM

Originally posted by G L G:
I have stated my position and if some of you feel the need to extrapolate more from my comments than I have actually said, that is your problem.

Extrapolate? Please! How about your call for genocide of the entire Muslim nation after 9/11? How about your 10,000 Muslims need to die for everyone one American killed comments? By your logic then with 2,749 American deaths on 9/11 we should kill 27,490,000 Muslims. That is 16,490,000 more then all that died during the Holocaust. By opinions expressed in your own words, it is a very safe assumption to call you a racist, because all you have been doing is spewing racist propaganda. Please explain to me how I have extrapolated any of your comments.

but I never suspected you to be a muslim sympathizer. See in the Cold War years it was easy to spot a Communist Sympathizer and call one as such. Now for "political correctness" we have people like you making excuses for our enemy. Sad.

Muslim sympathizer? Sure, their entire religion is being deemed hostile because people like you continue to lump a small group of Muslims together with the vast majority. Political correctness aside, your comments are reminiscent of Nazi Germany. Being someone I know has a great deal of intelligence, I am not understanding how you can't see your comments as being anything but.

I am not sure if your company offers it or not, but maybe you should look into Diversity Training. If they do not, you can visit several sources on the web including here and here.

**jumper69** · February 18th, 2006, 04:19 AM

So what have you done specifically to solve this muslim problem? I haven't seen you on TV denouncing the "bad muslims" or leading marches in the streets against them so I guess you're just falling down on the job.

Nor have I seen you Pina. You're making this argument against the wrong ethnicity. I, as a despised westerner, would have zero chance of identifying or apprehending said muslim extremists.

Just like in my earlier example, as a cop, I can take action once I know who the bad guys are...but until then, I can only ask for assistance from those who actually live amongst the scum.

You can hold all the marches, take out all the advertisements, and get your mug on TV all that you like. The end result is the same. More death, more violence, and more hatred of the west.

I'm living in the real world. Peaceful Muslim protests against violence and $.65 gets me a Reeses Cup candy bar. [img]graemlins/whatever.gif[/img]

Active Muslim gathering of intelligence on the bad Muslims gets me a target and THEN I can deal with the problem.

**Piña** · February 18th, 2006, 04:52 AM

Originally posted by Law Dawg:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />So what have you done specifically to solve this Muslim problem? I haven't seen you on TV denouncing the "bad Muslims" or leading marches in the streets against them so I guess you're just falling down on the job.

Nor have I seen you Pina. You're making this argument against the wrong ethnicity. I, as a despised westerner, would have zero chance of identifying or apprehending said Muslim extremists. <hr /></blockquote>You also are making your argument against the wrong ethnicity. You make a lot of assumptions about Muslims here that are frankly, well lets just say wrongheaded. What makes you think that ?bad Muslims?, and I take it by bad that you mean those that blow up Americans, would let anyone Muslim or not know who they are? They?re a fringe group, well actually many fringe groups, that represent very radical thinking. They?re not about to run around handing out business cards that read ?Bombs for Allah, Bombs for Peace.?

Your lumping of all Muslims into one cohesive group is just as wrong as saying that all Christians think and act alike and that they all know what every other Christian is up to. It just doesn?t work that way. Ask a Sunni how they got along at the last Shiite (sp?) family get together.

Just like in my earlier example, as a cop, I can take action once I know who the bad guys are...but until then, I can only ask for assistance from those who actually live amongst the scum.

What!?! You don?t know what each and every american is up to? For shame, for shame, after all the rest of the world knows that all Americans act and think in concert and are all responsible for the evil things that any American does. You need to get up speed here, bucko.

You can hold all the marches, take out all the advertisements, and get your mug on TV all that you like. The end result is the same. More death, more violence, and more hatred of the west.

There actually might be other reasons. Some valid, some not.

I'm living in the real world. Peaceful Muslim protests against violence and $.65 gets me a Reeses Cup candy bar. [img]graemlins/whatever.gif[/img]

Well just have to disagree on whether peaceful protest accomplishes anything. I believe it does, at least from a PR perspective. Considering that GL is ranting about the alleged appearance that Muslims aren't protesting the violence enough I kinda think it's a good thing that they actually are.

Active Muslim gathering of intelligence on the bad Muslims gets me a target and THEN I can deal with the problem.

Perhaps, but to assume that just because you haven?t seen active gathering of intelligence doesn?t mean it isn?t happening. Did you expect that it would be front page sort of stuff. I mean I know our intelligence agencies are going through a rough period but that?s a little bit beyond the pale. One would think that people passing on secrets might just want it kept secret that they were doing so.

You have some sort of inside information that it isn?t happening?

**Piña** · February 18th, 2006, 04:55 AM

Raven

Let me just add to the accolades for a post that made me sit up and exclaim "Damnnnnnnnnnnnn!"

**gae** · February 18th, 2006, 09:03 AM

Your points are quite valid, and to be honest, why isn't there more news of outrage? I am not sure. Maybe the media is to blame. Is it? Who knows, but I do feel like our news outlets only let us know of the awful things that are happening. Plus, with that being said, it is a double sided coin, how come we never hear about schools being built and the people that thank us for being in Iraq? Is it because our news outlets only want us to hear what they want? Outrage in the Muslim world is out there, but like all the good things we have done in Iraq, you have to really want to see it apparently.

This is an interesting discussion. I'm sitting on the bench between GL and Jumper. As a whole, I really don't give a tinkers damn about Islam, because I think they're a bunch of 7th century lunatics. However, individually, I don't have a problem with the Muslims I've met.

Raven, I've been trying to read and listen to both sides of the media and the dichotomy is fascinating. When something happens in Iraq, the liberal media spins it one way, and the conservative media spins it another. I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

If you want to read about the progress in Iraq, go to FreeRepublic. There are many, many threads, some from folks over there, detailing the good things.

I really get lost, though, when people of Pina's persuasion tell me that I should be understanding and compassionate. The American's aren't the one's beheading people on TV. We aren't the one's sending suicide bombers into shopping areas. We're not flying airplanes into buildings.

For as much as the US is characterized as a "Christian" nation, I think most of us have tenuous ties to the religion of our parents or grandparents. I was raised Cathoic and have summarily dismissed that entire cult. Trav was raised Lutheran and has done much the same. Our respective children were raised without formal religious instruction. So... it seems to me that if Muslims want converts, all they need to do is assimilate into our society and convince the unchurched that Islam is the way to go.

But they can't. Because it's not a religion of peace.

Thread: Some discussion points

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