Merry Christmas or Merry Mithras?

**funkycamper** · November 23rd, 2006, 07:12 AM

Three points and a question...and then I'm off to bed because morning comes early when you've got a turkey to cook. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

First, I think it's ridiculous to say that Muslims can't practice their faith. I'm quite sure that those in Muslim countries see Christians as being terrorists as well. Look at history and The Crusades and all the crap we've done in those countries in this century. Yikes! If they saw a Christian thank God for their airplane-food meal by saying a blessing, do you think they should raise a fuss? Should they? No. And we shouldn't either when they are practicing their faith. Good grief! Not all Muslims are terrorists. FWIW, I've been places where I've seen Muslims kneel and pray at the appointed hour. I wasn't the least bit afraid but, rather, gave them space to do so and tried to show my respect for their expression of their faith by being quiet. What is wrong with people that they jump at shadows? I don't get it.

Second, there were no Christians in the Garden of Eden. Prior to Adam and Eve's fall from grace, they were simply God's companions. No more, no less. After that, you might say that they were the beginning of the Jewish faith. Christianity didn't begin until Christ sacrificed Himself on the cross. So pagans existed long before Christians did.

Third, how in the heck does a Holiday Party at work, where Christ isn't mentioned, take away a Christian's traditions and beliefs? I've been to many holiday parties where the secular aspects of Christmas were the focus and there has been no mention of Christ. So what? I'm still a Christian. I still celebrate Christ's birth at that time. Most of our family traditions focus on Christ's birth. Heck, we even do a birthday cake for Jesus! How does a work-related party take that away from me? Someone must have a very weak and wavering faith if that's all it takes for one to lose their beliefs!

* You quoted Stormy as saying "I would never expect another religion to change what is sacred to them so that I would feel more at ease. That would just be the epitome of selfishness."

* You further state that she said "that although nothing religious happens at a Christmas party, if we call it a Holiday Party we are taking Christ out of it and forcing the Christians to give up their traditions and beliefs."

* And then, on this board, Stormy says "Well, passengers saw the other guys who flew the planes into the trade towers praying, also. Had I been on that flight, I would have gotten up and walked off because I would never be comfortable being in an inclosed space with 6 Imams who were heard to be speaking Anti-American garbage. Sorry, it's not up to us to kiss their butts after what their Islamic people did...it's up to them to prove themselves to us...and frankly, a lot of Americans just aren't ready to put our blind trust in them right now or anytime soon."

Gosh, why would you ever think there is a lack of consistency? [img]graemlins/thinking.gif[/img]

The question: What other board? If there is another board where these discussions are going on, some of us might want to join it. So, please share. Or, if you'd prefer not to, then I don't think it's appropriate to bring other discussions here. Just, imho.

[ November 23, 2006 03:21 AM: Message edited by: funkycamper ]

**feelinggreat** · November 23rd, 2006, 01:13 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stormyskies:
We go clear back to the Garden of Eden...if that's not before pagans, then I'm missing something. [img]wink.gif[/img]

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

QUOTE]
Good grief - you're telling me there were Christians before Christ was born? I think you need to ask your spiritual leader about this one.

Funky is right, you seem to have completely missed the fact that Jormy was pointing out your hypocrisy and then you just made some stuff up in an effort to cover your selfishness by claiming it was connected to your religion. Jesus taught tolerance and love for one another - I hope others who read this board realize that not all Christians try to rationalize bad behavior the way you have in that post.

And I see that you can't tell me where you heard that the Imans were saying anything anti-American. Did you think that just because their prayers weren't Christian that they were somehow anti-American? ... If so, that's the epitome of selfishness with some ignorance thrown in for good measure.

**Jormy** · November 23rd, 2006, 02:03 PM

Funky.. The "other board" is a low carb board that doesn't allow religious or political discussion and I knew that the thread would be deleted. I believe you were on there because I remember your user name? Lowcarbfriends? It used to have a political board until *cough* some people thought that their religion was being dragged through the mud and so it was disbanded.

The discussion was short lived on that board because it was deleted by the mods. I wanted to continue the discussion so I brought it here. You and the others won't be able to have the discussion there because it requires 60 posts and a month to get on the Playground where the discussion took place, plus it was already deleted so you would be banned if you , or I or anyone else started it back up.

Its not that I don't want to share where it is *see above sentence for location* but that you and the others wouldn't be allowed to join in the discussion there, so I brought it here where we could discuss it.

Onelove started this site so that we could discuss these kinds of things w/o fear of getting banned or the thread deleted.

I quoted her exact words and brought them here so she could tell me her thoughts on what I posted and explain why she said what she did when she so obviously doesn't mean it when applied to her religion.

Believe me, you didn't miss anything, it was along the same lines as what has been posted here already.

[ November 23, 2006 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Jormy ]

**feelinggreat** · November 23rd, 2006, 04:03 PM

I hope you all have a nice Thanksgiving! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Stormyskies:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by feelinggreat:
[qb]Jormy, your post made me think of the six Imams who were removed from a plane recently because a passenger was uncomfortable seeing them pray.

Well, passengers saw the other guys who flew the planes into the trade towers praying, also. Had I been on that flight, I would have gotten up and walked off because I would never be comfortable being in an inclosed space with 6 Imams who were heard to be speaking Anti-American garbage. Sorry, it's not up to us to kiss their butts after what their Islamic people did...it's up to them to prove themselves to us...and frankly, a lot of Americans just aren't ready to put our blind trust in them right now or anytime soon. <hr /></blockquote>I didn't say anything about kissing their butts (?) so I don't know why you quoted me. I just said that the subject reminded me of that incident ... and I have not heard a thing about them saying anything anti-American. I thought they were just saying their prayers. Do you have a source for that? I'd like to know more because this is the first I've heard that part of it.

[qb]

I believe Christians, although they weren't called that back then, existed long before pagans ever did, but of course, for the people who totally discount the Bible, you wouldn't be able to tell them that. I'm not denying that some of the traditions Christmas has is from pagan roots, but I don't believe that it's mere man who took over the holiday from pagans. I believe there is a Higher force at work who did that.

This really confused me. Can you tell me more about Christians who existed before Pagans? I've never heard of such a thing. Thanks.

**Jeeperrr** · November 23rd, 2006, 09:40 PM

Thanks for the explanation Jormy. I didn't read the original thread at LCF.

Stormy - Is that quote accurate? Did you really say that you would never expect another religion to change what is sacred to them so that you would feel more at ease?

Then you don't mind if fundamentalist Muslims require their adherents to wear the veil, try to make converts, etc.?

**funkycamper** · November 24th, 2006, 03:45 PM

Onelove started this site so that we could discuss these kinds of things w/o fear of getting banned or the thread deleted.

And I appreciate the ability to post here without worrying about Big Brother looking over my shoulder. The mods at the Political Board at LCF were so touchy. It seemed that whenever some people were clearly losing arguments there, that they would whine to the mods and get someone warned or even banned. I never saw the point of entering into a discussion about heated topics like religion and politics if you can't handle debate.

Thanks for the background and I hope you'll share other interesting stuff in the future.

**Stormyskies** · November 24th, 2006, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by Jeeperrr:
Thanks for the explanation Jormy. I didn't read the original thread at LCF.

Stormy - Is that quote accurate? Did you really say that you would never expect another religion to change what is sacred to them so that you would feel more at ease?

Then you don't mind if fundamentalist Muslims require their adherents to wear the veil, try to make converts, etc.?

I would not expect Muslims to change their sacred holidays to appease me. People want to just say Happy Holidays because because the word Christ in Christmas is offensive to them. I wouldn't expect the Muslims to change the name or symbols of their religion to appease me.

And as for my statement about walking off the plane if I happened to be on a flight with 6 muslims who had previously been heard to be making anti-American insults...you bet I'd get off that plane. All I have really seen of that religion is violence and hatred and I believe that's at the heart of what their religion teaches...and it teaches it to their children. You don't see Christians going around blowing people up or crashing planes into buildings as an offer to our God. THere is a huge difference in beliefs between Muslims and Christians and I'm sorry, but I don't trust them. That is my prerogative to feel that way. I'm not so quick to slap a free pass on a group of people that are wrecking havoc all over this world. Not enough of them stand up and speak out against what the rest of them are doing. In fact, I was reading about one girl who did speak out against the horrible things the Islamists are doing, and she's had to go into hiding because she's had death threats.

But as far as me expecting them to change the name of their holiday so I can partake of it, even though I don't believe in it, so I won't feel offended is a little selfish, don't you think? And that's what's happening with Christmas. People are offended over the word Christ and therefore want to take Christ out of Christmas so all the ones who don't believe in Jesus can partake. I see that as nothing more than the epitome of selfishness. You expect me to sit here and let Christmas get trampled on and done away with so all the atheists can enjoy themselves. Ain't gonna happen!

**Stormyskies** · November 24th, 2006, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by Jormy:

I quoted her exact words and brought them here so she could tell me her thoughts on what I posted and explain why she said what she did when she so obviously doesn't mean it when applied to her religion.

Believe me, you didn't miss anything, it was along the same lines as what has been posted here already.

[ November 23, 2006 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Jormy ]

Jormy, I'm trying not to get upset about this, but it seems to me as if you really brought this over here so I could get ganged up on. After all, I am way out numbered here, which is why I don't post much. Since I so obviously don't mean what I say, I think I'll just back out of this whole board and you guys can all just have a government hating, Christian bashing good old time.

**feelinggreat** · November 24th, 2006, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by Stormyskies:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jormy:

I quoted her exact words and brought them here so she could tell me her thoughts on what I posted and explain why she said what she did when she so obviously doesn't mean it when applied to her religion.

Believe me, you didn't miss anything, it was along the same lines as what has been posted here already.

[ November 23, 2006 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Jormy ]

Jormy, I'm trying not to get upset about this, but it seems to me as if you really brought this over here so I could get ganged up on. After all, I am way out numbered here, which is why I don't post much. Since I so obviously don't mean what I say, I think I'll just back out of this whole board and you guys can all just have a government hating, Christian bashing good old time.<hr /></blockquote>BULLSH*T, Stormy. The only person bashing Christians here is YOU. You are bashing Christians by trying to portray yourself as representing them when you are anything but acting in Christ's image. For Shame.

**funkycamper** · November 25th, 2006, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by Stormyskies:
I would not expect Muslims to change their sacred holidays to appease me. People want to just say Happy Holidays because because the word Christ in Christmas is offensive to them. I wouldn't expect the Muslims to change the name or symbols of their religion to appease me.

And as for my statement about walking off the plane if I happened to be on a flight with 6 muslims who had previously been heard to be making anti-American insults...you bet I'd get off that plane. All I have really seen of that religion is violence and hatred and I believe that's at the heart of what their religion teaches...and it teaches it to their children. You don't see Christians going around blowing people up or crashing planes into buildings as an offer to our God. THere is a huge difference in beliefs between Muslims and Christians and I'm sorry, but I don't trust them. That is my prerogative to feel that way. I'm not so quick to slap a free pass on a group of people that are wrecking havoc all over this world. Not enough of them stand up and speak out against what the rest of them are doing. In fact, I was reading about one girl who did speak out against the horrible things the Islamists are doing, and she's had to go into hiding because she's had death threats.

But as far as me expecting them to change the name of their holiday so I can partake of it, even though I don't believe in it, so I won't feel offended is a little selfish, don't you think? And that's what's happening with Christmas. People are offended over the word Christ and therefore want to take Christ out of Christmas so all the ones who don't believe in Jesus can partake. I see that as nothing more than the epitome of selfishness. You expect me to sit here and let Christmas get trampled on and done away with so all the atheists can enjoy themselves. Ain't gonna happen![/QB]

Oh, my....where to begin?

If you freaked out because you saw some Muslims praying on a plane or prior to getting on, that's your choice. But, really, is that what you would do? Or would you do as what happened and demand that the Muslims be the ones taken off the plane? I have a feeling this is more likely.

And the fact that you have not educated yourself about the Muslim faith and have some serious misconceptions about the foundation of their faith does not mean it is true. Muslims often have the same perception of the Christian faith. What do you think The Crusades were all about? And what about the European/American invasion of their countries throughout recent history? Are these invasions and slaughter of Muslims by these Christian nations any less horrific? Would it be fair for some Muslims to mistrust Christians because of these actions? Or would you be offended by these perceptions?

Historically, actions by Christians and Christians nations towards natives living in non-Christian nations have been pretty dang bad. Or are you unaware of history? The conquests of North and South America, Australia, parts of Africa, Southeast Asia, Indo-China, the Phillipines, and the various Pacific islands are rife with examples of intentional slaughter, subjugation, and destruction. This was done both by armies from Christian nations and Christian missionaries in the name of God.

Contrast this with the Ottoman Empire. Even though the ruling class was Muslim, they allowed other faiths to prosper including Christianity and the Jewish faith. Fancy that! The Ottomans even established a system under which these different faiths could flourish. I am unaware of any similar situations in nations conquered by Christians.

As for the Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays issue...oh, please! How long has this imaginary War on Christmas been going on? I clearly remember as a child in the 50's and 60's getting Christmas cards that said "Happy Holidays" or Seasons Greetings" on them. And they were often sent to us by devout Christians, too! What's up with that? How about nothing! No one thought anything of it then and nobody would now if Bill O'Reilly hadn't started this imaginary War in order to boost his ratings. As a Christian who makes a Birthday Cake for Jesus each year as part of our family tradition, I think your claims are ludicrous.

If you really think there is a war on Christmas and that Christmas should be reserved for celebrating Christ's birth, then I assume you have obliterated all of the pagan traditions from your home that have infiltrated Christmas. After all, by continuing these pagan traditions, aren't you simply detracting from Christ's birth?

Just some of the pagan practices you would have to give up to focus on Christ's birth during the holidays and not give any honor to the pagan faiths from which they originated: gift giving, garlands, candles, Christmas tree, caroling, a fire in the fireplace with anything that might invoke an image of a Yule Log, and mistle-toe.

If you're not willing to give up these practices, then aren't you part of the War on Christmas. If not, why not?

I mean, if it doesn't detract from Christ's birth to practice all sorts of pagan rituals instead of focusing on celebrating Christ's birthday, then how in the heck could it be detracting from Christ's birth to say Happy Holidays or Seasons Greetings? It just makes no sense to me and it seems very duplicitous if not, outright, hypocritical to say that the active practice of some pagan rituals are not part of the War on Christmas while a few simple words are.

Thread: Merry Christmas or Merry Mithras?

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