A Liberal's Pledge to Disheartened Conservatives ...by Michael Moore

**onelove** · November 24th, 2006, 10:50 PM

feeling great...oh yeah the Republicans have plenty o' snark as well. We were just talking about this piece,

funkycamper...People who are prolife see it as murder. That statement offends them as much as my example does me. I don't in anyway agree with them. There just isn't concilliation in that statement. His audience(if it is the right not the left) isn't being addressed with respect.

**feelinggreat** · November 24th, 2006, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by onelove:
feeling great...oh yeah the Republicans have plenty o' snark as well. We were just talking about this piece,

funkycamper...People who are prolife see it as murder. That statement offends them as much as my example does me. I don't in anyway agree with them. There just isn't concilliation in that statement. His audience(if it is the right not the left) isn't being addressed with respect.

Sure. I just find it hard to read criticisms from any Republicans without taking their hypocrisy into account lately (considering the last few years). Most especially conservatives criticizing anyone who isn't saying everything they want to hear - which is what I saw happen here.

And are you really saying to Funky that if he doesn't say what they want to hear it's not trying to meet in the middle? (which is my understanding of the meaning of conciliation)

**onelove** · November 24th, 2006, 11:11 PM

I am saying that if he wanted to be friendly he would focus on the common ground. At the very least he would acknowledge that good people can disagree. That isn't what is happening here.

Again, I don't think Moore is wrong about the things that the Republicans have done. I just read this as a very subtle go have carnal knowledge with yourself, not a let's work together.

**feelinggreat** · November 24th, 2006, 11:28 PM

Yes I can see why you would say that, I just don't think it's worth spending all this time on. It takes away from a worthwhile discussion about troubles facing our country.

Cheney said F-You to a Democrat on the Senate floor and I don't recall Senorina getting all lathered about political attitude then. Most Republicans said something like, "Get over it."

This is hypocrisy, pure and simple. They need to Get Over It themselves. Watch them all stomp out of your board because they say their feelings are hurt when it seems clear to me that they cannot discuss the issues without showing their selfishness.

As long as the feigned outrage rules the conversation nothing gets done. Just like the last six years. The war machine grinds on making money for the greedy ones and our soldiers keep dying for what? Their bank accounts?

Especially today, I say thank goodness for the change in majority rule and a chance at some progress.

**onelove** · November 24th, 2006, 11:36 PM

Oh I agree there is soooooooooooooooo muuuuch to get done. There are huge ticking time bombs that are just waiting to explode. Someone needs to get out front and lead. I just like writing and people who are out front suggesting solutions and acting.(Howard Dean is an example that comes to mind) I am less wild about passive aggressiveness. That's how this strikes me.

**feelinggreat** · November 24th, 2006, 11:43 PM

Oh and Howard Dean has done some wonderful things! [img]smile.gif[/img]

**funkycamper** · November 25th, 2006, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by onelove:
funkycamper...People who are prolife see it as murder. That statement offends them as much as my example does me. I don't in anyway agree with them. There just isn't concilliation in that statement. His audience(if it is the right not the left) isn't being addressed with respect.

We need get something straight. I am pro-life. I believe we all are. Do you know anyone who is anti-life? I sure don't. But if you use pro-life to describe anti-choice folks, the logical conclusion is that those of us who are pro-choice are anti-life. I'm not going to use that frame and suggest that no one else does either. I'm really not trying to jump on you personally about this but letting them create the frame in a way that is so negative to the opposing POV is not a good thing, imho.

I am pro-choice. They are anti-choice.

To be honest, I really believe that if the Moore letter was being circulated anonymously, that more people, maybe even you?, would see it as an olive branch. I think the only reason why some people don't is because they are suspect of anything Moore does.

I tend to take things at face value unless someone proves me wrong. I am about as partisan as you can get as I am an active volunteer in politics and within the Democratic Party. Yet there have been issues and events where local Republicans and I have put aside our political differences and worked together for something we agree is important. Most recently this has included working on a committee to help get a school levy passed and being on a citizen's advisory committee for our town's community development program. So, I guess what I'm saying is this, even partisans from both sides can agree to work together and sometimes it isn't passive-agressive or snark.

I still contend that since Moore's letter allows Republicans the right to do what they choose and even respects their choice, while your example of what a Republican might wrong takes away choice, that they are not fitting side-by-side comparisons at all.

[ November 24, 2006 10:00 PM: Message edited by: funkycamper ]

**senorina** · November 27th, 2006, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by onelove:
I don't think it was an olive branch.

Try thinking about a Republican pundit saying something like this in a similar letter.

1. We respect life. We promise to protect your unborn children, not just those of Republicans. While we are in power not one more of your precious children will be legally killed before they are born."

He is presenting as positive things that many conservatives find objectionable. He acts like they should be grateful for these changes even if they disagree with them.

I don't think the causes he champions are wrong. I just don't think it is as friendly as ya'all are portraying it. It's sort of a back handed snarky mother-in-law kind of missive.

Thank you.

I was pretty resigned to giving up on having an intelligent discussion here, then I read a voice of reason...and maybe.....

I feel quite confident that MM would admit that this was meant to be a sarcastic piece. But when you, Onelove, try to explain the simple fact that is a sarcastic piece and try to give an example to demonstrate your point, they start arguing about your example!! Its impossible.

I agree with a lot of the things in Moore's letter.

A few I disagree with.

I would have been happy to discuss the point by point, but when you have to bang your head against the wall trying to get the point across that it was not a kind and loving letter, you can't possibly move forward in the discussion.

And Funky Camper I am not a conservative. I am not an apologist for any political party. I am not brainwashed by either ideology.

**funkycamper** · November 27th, 2006, 05:14 AM

And I am quite confident it was not meant as a sarcastic piece. If you have visited Moore's sight, he regularly has letters like this on there. Quite often, they also target Democrats. While they sometimes express anger, they always appear to be quite sincere.

As an active Democrat at the local and state levels, and as one who has met my Congressman and Senators on many occasions, including 3 different events just prior to the elections and 1 after the election, in which the election results were discussed and goals and hopes for the new Congress were also discussed, I hard numerous statements made indicating that all these folks are really hoping that they will be able to use diplomacy with Republicans in order to heal the wounds that have been created over the few years. I believe they were being sincere and not sarcastic.

I have also been involved in numerous debates with other active leaders within the Democratic Party and, while some of us would love to have a little vengeance, most of us are also pragmatic enough to realize that this is no way to get things done. So, yes, we also would like to see Congress working together to fix the problems rather than focus on things that might feel good but that wouldn't fix these problems.

I have also seen this POV expressed on various liberal and/or Democratic websites. DailyKos is one of the biggest in terms of participants and, even there, a large number of folks are calling for some kind of reconciliation rather than vengeance.

You have a right to your opinion. However, you can't necessarily say that you and those who agree with you are the only voices of reason while the rest of us are....what? Whackos?

I'm confident that I'm enough of an insider, even though I'm a fairly lowly one and on the fringe, to have good insight into the plan. Moore is simply writing in a way to support that plan.

I'm sorry that you think that we are all unreasonable, kneejerkers who make decisions based on emotions rather than a prudent and pragmatic review of the issues to determine what is best for the country. I really think you're wrong on this.