Wrexial is cheap! I'm thinking of pulling Thraximundur from contention. Expensive, and no evasion. Actually, I don't think there's a good reason to keep it.
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Wrexial is cheap! I'm thinking of pulling Thraximundur from contention. Expensive, and no evasion. Actually, I don't think there's a good reason to keep it.
Amusing observation: Loxodon Warhammer is not currently in the deck.
That is amusing... so does this mean we consider adding warhammer/sledge or remove both from consideration?
Let's see what the creature % is before we make that decision, after we make our changes
Okay, we'll leave that for a bit. There's still way too many cards even with subbing for some of the weaker cards in the Essentials. I think it's going to be time to make some hard cuts to the list of potentials.
I've got a project that will likely take most of the rest of my evening. Has to be done tonight to make room for mattress delivery in the morning too. If I get it done sooner than expected, I will post some of my ideas about the weaker cards on the list. Then we can debate on my bad choices and everyone's personal favorites and such. Otherwise, probably tomorrow.
Okay, first here's the current list of potentials. After the list I'll detail what I think should come off. Then we'll debate for a bit and see if we can't agree on some stuff.
Behemoth Sledge
Black Lotus
Citanul Flute
Crucible of Worlds
Expedition Map**
Lotus Bloom
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Saphire
Oblivion Stone
Panoptic Mirror
All is Dust
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre**
Contract from Below
Decree of Pain
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Sudden Spoiling
Suffer the Past
Vampiric Tutor
Yawgmoth's Will
Compulsion
Draining Whelk
Gifts Ungiven
Intuition
Mystical Tutor
Recurring Insight
Rite of Replication**
Sphinx of Magosi
Thada Adel, Acquisitor**
Time Walk
Tinker
Trinket Mage
Anathemancer**
Captain Sisay
Dauntless Escort**
Empyrial Archangel**
Fight to the Death
Maelstrom Nexus**
Maelstrom Pulse
Novablast Wurm**
Prince of Thralls**
Rafiq of the Many**
Sen Triplets**
Trygon Predator
Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Acidic Slime
Hibernation's End
Life from the Loam
Realms Uncharted
Survival of the Fittest
Terastodon**
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs**
Magmaw
Deathless Angel
Elspeth, Knight-Errant**
Enlightened Tutor
Luminarch Ascension**
Magus of the Disc
Marshal's Anthem**
Stoneforge Mystic**
Wall of Omens
Oblivion Stone - Keeping Decree of Pain in for now. All is Dust as well. Oblivion Stone gets the cut.
Sudden Spoiling - If it's between Fight to the Death and Sudden Spoiling, I'd rather try out the new trick. Sudden Spoiling can go back to its happy place in the wishboard.
Captain Sisay - Probably too slow and a bit past her prime.
Empyrial Archangel - I don't know, it just doesn't strike me as strong enough for the cost. 8 mana for that body is weak. The ability is neat and all, but likely to be a just a fog in the later game once the big boys come to play.
Novablast Wurm - The biggest drawback is that he allows regeneration. Other than that I don't see too much wrong with him. I just think there is better stuff still on the list.
Sen Triplets - Cost to body ratio is unimpressive. Ability is great, but might have people cause a lot of hate to be directed your way.
Trygon Predator - Feels too weak.
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - Too small? Too fragile?
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Luminarch Ascension
Magus of the Disc
Wall of Omens
These are some of the hard cuts. I think they're all good, but looking at the rest of the list I think they're a little further down. I may be wrong on these guys, but that's why I have you gents to help me debate on this stuff :D
These leaves 51 cards not counting Behemoth Sledge. I originally said around 36 slots of the 50 would be new non-land cards. I think we can change that to around 40 with all the moxes and the lotuses. So that means we have 11 extra cards unless we can find 11 cards to be replaced.
Per previous discussion, these cards are the most likely to be replaced. It's not a sure thing, just stuff we discussed. I'll add some extra info if the card hasn't been discussed.
Masticore
Diabolic Tutor With this many tutors coming in, seems okay to drop a super expensive one.
Tradewind Rider
Tidespount Tyrant
Kaervek the Merciless
Rith, the Awakener
Woolly Thoctar
Spitting Image Possibly for Rite of Replication. Rite doesn't have the recursive abuse, but it can have the just win factor. 2 mana cheaper for a single go too.
Supply/Demand Another weaker tutor. Also, Supply is rarely used.
Avatar of Fury I'm fine with continued debate. I just want some debate. Reasons why he is better than a lot of the other potentials goods.
Firestorm Still not sold on losing this.
And that's exactly 11 cards.
I mostly agree with the cuts from the potentials and the current deck.
I do have trouble beleiving Wall of Omens should be out if Wall of Blossoms is still in. They are both in prominent colors for the deck so it seems natural to have them both.
I think Sen Triplets may deserve a second look, but I'm ok with the wish board for a while as long as they get wished for to see how they do. They are fun!
Also, I think Petrified Field should be considered as a land (it goes extremely well with Realms Uncharted or just simply getting back a great land like Volrath's Stronghold.
Great!
I had a bit of trouble with Wall of Omens as well. I'd like to find the room for sure. If we can figure out something else to remove or what not, that's fine.
Petrified Field is on my land potentials. I haven't been posting that list.
I am still a fan of Elspeth and Ajani the red as good planeswalkers for the deck.
Do we even currently have any in the deck?
Just Liliana.
Red Ajani's plus isn't very good at all. Lightning Helix takes most his counters. Ultimate is super harsh for multiplayer.
If you say so... he's one card I almost never hate drawing...
And Lelianna seems meh for the deck... Tezzeret almost seems better and creates card advantage (especially with such good artifacts in the deck and moxes) where Lelianna creates card quality and only does so on your NEXT turn. And her discard is meh. Untap these two moxes? Ok!
Of all the planewalkers, I would be okay with trying out either Elspeth, Knight-Errant or Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
Elspeth's first ability is just okay. The second is pretty decent and the ultimate is damned good. She'll likely never get to the ultimate, but if she does, only All is Dust or Hallowed Burial will fix it.
As for stupid overpriced Jace.... I know I've been down on this guy, but rereading him with a more open mind has me rethinking things. The first ability is solid and gives +2. The 0 and -1 are great abilities. If you actually hit the 12, well that's just awesome. Unlikely, but awesome.
As for Tezzeret the Seeker, the ultimate is lackluster. Yeah, it might put you in a better board position or help in a pinch, but overall it's just okay. The untap is useful in only the right situation. The search is pretty decent.
As for Liliana, it's hard to say. Her ultimate is amazing, but you have to keep her around for 4 turns to do it. The search isn't bad. More tutors don't hurt? Especially on a target that's not you?
I definitely feel like plansewalkers are highly underestimated in the essentials. Sure they are card that people target, but you know what? Its because they really are that good. But I see this is clearly a losing battle right now. Perhaps you will change your mind after seeing them in action across the table from you.
On the contrary, I'm all for finding a spot for Elspeth and Jace the new. They seem good enough and if it doesn't work out, they can just be booted later. In fact, I think Jace could slide in in Liliana's place. The deck doesn't need too any planeswalkers after all.
Totally agree. Bad AjaniQuote:
Originally Posted by kerbythepurplecow
And isn't Red Ajani on the list of cards to play to get punched in the nuts by Abe?
I believe it's just that and Invincible Hymn at the moment. Or the latter is just groan worthy? Can't recall.
Okay, we haven't touched this in a bit. I figure it's time to finish it off. This is everything up to and including the last discussions. Jace the new and Elspeth are included. Lands are not there as they're not done yet.
Behemoth Sledge
Black Lotus
Bosh, Iron Golem
Chrome Mox
Citanul Flute
Crucible of Worlds
Darksteel Colossus
Etched Oracle
Expedition Map**
Fellwar Stone
Gilded Lotus
Lotus Bloom
Memory Jar
Mind's Eye
Mox Crystal
Mox Diamond
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Saphire
Nevinyrral's Disk
Panoptic Mirror
Scroll Rack
Sensei's Divining Top
Skullclamp
Sol Ring
Solemn Simulacrum
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sunforger
Tawnos's Coffin
Umezawa's Jitte
Vedalken Orrery
All is Dust
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre**
Avatar of Woe
Bane of the Living
Contract from Below
Damnation
Decree of Pain
Demonic Collusion
Demonic Tutor
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Guiltfeeder
Kokusho, the Evening Star
Liliana Vess
Living Death
Mortivore
Oversold Cemetary
Recurring Nightmare
Sudden Death
Suffer the Past
Tortured Existence
Vampiric Tutor
Yawgmoth's Will
Allied Strategies
Ancestral Vision
Arcanis the Omnipotent
Bribery
Bringer of the Blue Dawn
Compulsion
Cunning Wish
Draining Whelk
Drift of Phantasms
Fabricate
Fact or Fiction
Forbid
Future Sight
Gifts Ungiven
Intuition
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Magus of the Jar
Mystical Teachings
Mystical Tutor
Recurring Insight
Rite of Replication**
Sphinx of Magosi
Stroke of Genius
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Thada Adel, Acquisitor**
Time Spiral
Time Walk
Timetwister
Tinker
Trinket Mage
Willbender
Wonder
Anathemancer**
Brion Strongarm
Conflux
Dauntless Escort**
Doran, the Siege Tower
Eladamri's Call
Fight to the Death
Hellkite Overlord
Hull Breach
Jund Charm
Knight of the Reliquary
Maelstrom Nexus**
Maelstrom Pulse
Meglonoth
Mirari's Wake
Mystic Enforcer
Oros, the Avenger
Pernicious Deed
Prince of Thralls**
Putrefy
Rafiq of the Many**
Shadowmage Infiltrator
Simic Sky Swallower
Sol'kanar the Swamp King
Spiritmonger
Sterling Grove
Teneb, the Harvester
Terminate
Vhati il-Dal
Vindicate
Vulturous Zombie
Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Dead/Gone
Fire/Ice
Acidic Slime
All Suns' Dawn
Birds of Paradise
Chameleon Colossus
Crop Rotation
Defense of the Heart
Eternal Witness
Genesis
Hermit Druid
Hibernation's End
Joiner Adept
Kodama's Reach
Krosan Tusker
Life from the Loam
Living Wish
Nantuko Vigilante
Nostalgic Dreams
Pattern of Rebirth
Prismatic Omen
Protean Hulk
Raking Canopy
Realms Uncharted
Recollect
Regrowth
Restock
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Scapeshift
Shard Convergence
Silklash Spider
Silvos, Rogue Elemental
Spike Weaver
Survival of the Fittest
Sylvan Library
Sylvan Scrying
Terastodon**
Thornscape Battlemage
Tooth and Nail
Treefolk Harbinger
Wall of Blossoms
Yavimaya Elder
Akroma, Angel of Fury
Ancient Grudge
Anger
Arc-slogger
Burning Wish
Flameblast Dragon
Flametounge Kavu
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs**
Magmaw
Rakavolver
Recoup
Stigma Lasher
Wheel of Fortune
Academy Rector
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Akroma's Vengeance
Balance
Commander Eesha
Crib Swap
Deathless Angel
Decree of Justice
Dismantling Blow
Elspeth, Knight-Errant**
Enlightened Tutor
Eternal Dragon
Exalted Angel
Glory
Hallowed Burial
Indomitable Ancients
Land Tax
Marshal's Anthem**
Martial Coup
Oblation
Orim's Thunder
Path to Exile
Pristine Angel
Ray of Revelation
Reya, Dawnbringer
Rout
Spirit of the Hearth
Stoneforge Mystic**
Stonehewer Giant
Swords to Plowshares
Tithe
Weathered Wayfarer
Wing Shards
Wrath of God
It's exactly 300 cards with 92 lands. The typical amount is around a third, which would be 100. So we're 8 lands light. However, the land+land fix total is usually best around 40%. With the current deck it's around 45%. Quite a bit more than typically necessary. I might like to cut a couple more cards to up the land count to around 95.
The deck has 101 creatures or cards that fetch/create/become them. 33.7%
By casting cost it's:
17.6% Black
19.9% Blue
26.2% Green
12.1% Red
24.2% White
By converted casting cost:
CC0 5%
CC1 10%
CC2 15%
CC3 19%
CC4 16%
CC5 16%
CC6 8%
CC7 3%
CC8 4%
CC9 4%
CC11 <1%
CC15 <1%
How's that? Complaints? Still some obvious cuts or exclusions?
After it's firm we can hash out the land. That'll be easy.
Proposed mana base:
Academy Ruins
Adarkar Wastes
Arid Mesa
Badlands
Battlefield Forge
Bayou
Bloodstained Mire
Bojuka Bog**
Brushland
Caves of Kolios
City of Brass
Emeria, the Sky Ruin**
Flagstones of Trokair
Flooded Strand
10 Forest
Grand Coliseum
8 Island
Karakas
Karpulsan Forest
Kor Haven
Krosan Verge
Library of Alexandria
Llanowar Reborn
Llanowar Wastes
Marsh Flats
Maze of Ith
Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
Misty Rainforest
5 Mountain
Murmuring Bosk
Nimbus Maze
10 Plains
Plateau
Polluted Delta
Reflecting Pool
Savannah
Scalding Tarn
Scrubland
Shivan Reef
Stomping Ground
Strip Mine
Sulfurous Springs
7 Swamp
Taiga
Terramorphic Expanse
Tolaria West
Tropical Island
Tundra
Undergroud River
Underground Sea
Urborg
Verdant Catacombs
Vesuva
Volcanic Island
Volrath's Stronghold
Wasteland
Windswept Heath
Wooded Foothills
Yavimaya Coast
Yavimaya Hollow
Zoetic Cavern
The deck still needs to cut around 3-4 cards. It's a 305 with these 96 lands. 1-2 lands can be cut maximum. Only real debate on the lands is whether or not to find room for the M10 lands. Perhaps instead of the pain lands?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerbythepurplecow
None of the Worldwake "I become a creature AND make two color" Lands?
Are they worth it? I try to have as few comes into play tapped lands as possible. What should they replace?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAbe
They are meh for the most part, though I would think the R/G one is worth it.
Creatures that survive the many wraths we sometimes see in games with heft? Noit bad at all. And they make two colors.Quote:
Originally Posted by kerbythepurplecow
I'd at least look at Celestial Colonnade, Creeping Tar Pit, and Lavaclaw Reaches
I suppose it would be worthwhile to try one or two and see how it goes. I know I have a lavaclaw reaches, so that's an easy thing there :D
What about shock duals from Rav block? Totally forgot. Worth it because they're fetchable?
Yes, fetchable, but they do cost a lot in terms of life... better than pain lands though!
Well dammit. I've still got 26 more proxies to make. My printer is currently out of ink so I'm doing them by hand. Shock duals are backburner for now :D
Proxies are finally done. Well, with the exception of Rite of Replication which I forgot to do and Ancestrall Recall which I completely overlooked until this point for some reason.
So, I added recall. The deck was 6 cards over. I trimmed a basic, Mikokoro, Liliana, Crop Rotation, Ray of Revelation, and Ancient Grudge.
Mikokoro is fun, but it's heavy disadvantage.
We talked about Liliana at length.
Crop Rotation is card disadvantage and there's still a crapton of land get in the deck
As for Ray and Ancient grudge, I actually set out every artifact/enchantment kill card in the deck. There's a ton, I think it can get by without them. They're still wishable.
I'm in between on Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation... after all they do create card advantage and they have use if you have to discard them for whatever reason. So I like them, but I'm not opposed to removing them either.
Crop Rotation on the other hand is really a "fixer" though it can be, I treat it as a tutor much like mystical or enlightened. I feel like this still deserves a spot.
Crop Rotation is 2 for 1. Sure, it's one mana, but it's still a disadvantage.
There's still Realms Uncharted, Weathered Wayfarer, Sylvan Scrying, Scapeshift, and Expedition Map to get any land. That's not to mention the massive tutor suite in the deck.
I actually considered pulling Land Tax for a but, but couldn't bring myself to do it in the end. The Essentials may be down to 39 basics, but that's still 13 Land Tax uses :D
You aren't getting 2 for 1'd, becuase the land that is sac'd is replaced. I dunno, I think I'd have a lot of trouble even considering Crop Rotation for the cut.
I did forget about Scapeshift... still need one of those...
Fair enough. Suggest a better cut.
Aaron makes the best proxies, ever.
I spent way too much time on them though. My hand way killing me after all that writing, drawing, and coloring.
Now that my scanner is working, I'll try to get around to scanning them.
Got bored the other night. Uploaded the current list to essentialmagic.com. Check it out and post with updates.
Essential Magic - Deck Overview
Trim these: A basic, Mikokoro, Liliana, Crop Rotation, Ray of Revelation, and Ancient Grudge.Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb
Then you're perfect.
Nice stuff by the way.
Removed the suggestions. Also removed an extra basic since I added all of the worldwake manlands. Essentialmagic doesn't have the chrome diamond there (since it's not an official card and not on gatherer)...so I still need to cut one more card to stay at 300.
Also, we should discuss the "budget essentials" we were talking about last week...I'll make a new thread re: that topic.
There are sme severely broketastic cards of rhte Essnetials fro the spoiled cards thus far. Two more spoiled today.
Wow, Survival creature Orrororey enchantment and a new Twister. Pretty slick. I almost dread this set because of the hard deck decisions it'll bring.
Essentials + M11, give me a list.