Essentials

[TheAbe]

My last post was suggestions, so they stay at that. So far its been mostly Aaron and me trying to make the decisions so the more the merrier, however I am going to fight tooth and nail for a spot for Qasali Pridemage. This card has a huge impact for his cost. Late game he helps your guys punch a little harder while threatening to destroy key artifacts/enchantments. Early he beats hard for his cost while packing heavy utility for when he can no longer hold the board alone. Pridemage is amazing.

Qasali Pridemage vs. Indrik Stomphowler


Qasali is an early drop, Indrik is not.

Normal game situation: you need to destroy a Mind's Eye. You top deck this card (whichever one you played). You play Pridemage and sac it to off the Eye - one for one'ed. You play Indrik Stomphowler and kill the Eye and have a 4/4 critter on the board. Card advantage.

Which one is better?

Now, instead of Indrik Stomphowler, consider this:

Pridemage vs Acidic Ooze.

Not that many cards take out lands, so Acadic Ooze has more utility

Deathtouch gives you a great chance oof killing a creature, making it a 2 for 1 much more often.


You are probably not goin got be casting Pridemage early, because that means two speicifc mana in play, (Green AND White) and it in hand at the same time - not going to happen to often, so 3rd or 4th turn before it gets played. Is that so much better than the chance of card advatage and a better creature on the board? I'd rahter have a 4/4 than a 2/2 exlated, and I'd rather have a 2/2 deathtouch than 2/2 exalte.d

[kerbythepurplecow]

Okay, finally time to chime back in. Sure, the cards Jason mentioned are classic and powerful, but should they be kept in for just those reasons? Should we pass up cards that are potentially better just because they're not proven?

Not that I'm saying all those cards should go.

Masticore: I've been less and less impressed with him the last few time I've drawn him.
Allied Strategies: The debate here was 5 mana or just go up to 6 for Recurring Insight. We never discussed using them both.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir: I still think Tereri is amazing.
Tidespout Tyrant: Great ability, unimpressive body for the cost. I'm on the fence.
Tradewind Rider: He could possibly go. Leans towards being pretty good most the time.
Jund Charm: 3 great abilities. Kill a graveyard, pyroclasm, save a critter. All instant. Bant is also good, but can't generate as much card advantage.
Kaervek the Merciless: I'm willing to sub him out for some other big silly creature.
Rith, the Awakener: I think with is the weakest of the dragons (in the deck). We put him in just to have some more big body.
Spiritmonger: 6/6 for 5 that gets bigger when it kills stuff and regenerates. Spiritmonger is still amazing.
Woolly Thoctar: It's a vanilla creature. Takes 3 colored mana. It's a big creature. It's also not very exciting.
Silvos, Rogue Elemental: Trampling regenerators win games. He's cheap for an 8/5 too!
Thornscape Battlemage: I'm going to go ahead and admit that as we've been looking at all these cards, I've been completely neglecting to think about card advantage. I guess you're always going to have some targets to cast this guy at and it's always going to be pure advantage.
Avatar of Fury: I've never understood Abe's devotion to this guy. He's a big flier, he fire-breathes, and he can come down cheap. In most cases, the mana is not going to be an issue. Would you rather draw a decent sized flier or something that can just win?
Spirit of the Hearth: I still think this guy is pretty solid. Walling yourself off from your opponents' spells is pretty good.

Okay, on to the other stuff.

Journeyer's Kite just isn't that great. It's 2 to get down and that's great. However it's 3 to search up a land and that land goes into your hand. Worse still is that it's only a basic. If the land came in tapped, I'd play it. If it only cost 2 to search (and still went to hand) I'd play it. I think 3 is too much. Is it worth playing simply because I can find another basic whenever I have a couple mana to spare? The Essentials would probably get all its basics out and sit around with a dead card.

Citanul Flute - I'm willing to give it another shot.

Reap and Sow - Current ways in the essentials to take out a land include Strip Mine, Wasteland, and Vindicate. Looking at this I tend to agree that another way to take out lands wouldn't hurt. I don't know if Reap and Sow is the best way to do it. I think I'd rather have Acidic Slime as more land search is currently unnecessary.

Lord of Extinction - So, should we now play every big, dumb, non-evasion player killer? Should I pull out my Copperhoof Vorrac? Remeber that guy? Your argument for not using that guy was the lack of evasion. He can be chumped again and again until they hit removal. Same with this Lord. Besides, the Essentials is a tool box and I can easily grab Mortivore any time.

Behemoth Sledge - Why is this questionable? Loxodon Warhammer has been in the deck since it was first printed. This just loses a power for 2 toughness. What's wrong with that?

Sudden Spoiling This has the potential to setup amazing defensive (or offensive) position. You can attack and be assured to kill all the blockers. It gets around all defensive abilities like regeneration or indestructible. However it's situational and might belong in the wish board. I haven't been able to decide how good it is. It might be worth trying out.

Rite of Replication This is creature removal for legends at the very least. Other times, you get yourself a DSC for 4. The very best times you make 5 Kokoshus for 9 and win.

Elspeth - All her abilities are solid. Why is she not good enough?

Prince of Thralls Too hateful for the multiplayer table?

Wild Research You're probably right.

Linvala Wishboard? Seems like the place for her.

Vengeful Dreams - I can go either way here. It's been great in the past, but whatever.

Goblin Bombardment Magmaw instead? Why? Magmaw has a cost and is still basically just saccing creatures. It's not too often I'll be saccing artifacts at stuff. Wait a sec.... I can sac my own Defense of the Heart? A Mind's Eye that's being killed? Okay. Fair enough. You've convinced me.

Mystic Snake Only being considered due to the lack of counters in the Essentials.

Qasali Pridemage As much as Jason will hate to hear it, you've convinced me with the card advantage argument. Acidic slime or Mold Shambler would be better.

Fight to the Death, Citanul Flute, Magmaw, Acidic Slime/Mold Shambler all added for consideration.

Next question, should Ancestral Recall be put on the list? Probably, huh? Just forgot to add it with all the other power.

Lastly, Acidic Slime or Mold Shambler? Mold Shambler costs one more mana to use, but hits planeswalkers. Mold Shambler will not trigger if brought in from the yard or Defense of the Hearted. Is the ability to hit planeswalkers worth the drawbacks?

[TheAbe]

Okay, finally time to chime back in. Sure, the cards Jason mentioned are classic and powerful, but should they be kept in for just those reasons? Should we pass up cards that are potentially better just because they're not proven?

Not that I'm saying all those cards should go.

Masticore: I've been less and less impressed with him the last few time I've drawn him.
Allied Strategies: The debate here was 5 mana or just go up to 6 for Recurring Insight. We never discussed using them both.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir: I still think Tereri is amazing.
Tidespout Tyrant: Great ability, unimpressive body for the cost. I'm on the fence.
Tradewind Rider: He could possibly go. Leans towards being pretty good most the time.
Jund Charm: 3 great abilities. Kill a graveyard, pyroclasm, save a critter. All instant. Bant is also good, but can't generate as much card advantage.
Kaervek the Merciless: I'm willing to sub him out for some other big silly creature.
Rith, the Awakener: I think with is the weakest of the dragons (in the deck). We put him in just to have some more big body.
Spiritmonger: 6/6 for 5 that gets bigger when it kills stuff and regenerates. Spiritmonger is still amazing.
Woolly Thoctar: It's a vanilla creature. Takes 3 colored mana. It's a big creature. It's also not very exciting.
Silvos, Rogue Elemental: Trampling regenerators win games. He's cheap for an 8/5 too!
Thornscape Battlemage: I'm going to go ahead and admit that as we've been looking at all these cards, I've been completely neglecting to think about card advantage. I guess you're always going to have some targets to cast this guy at and it's always going to be pure advantage.
Avatar of Fury: I've never understood Abe's devotion to this guy. He's a big flier, he fire-breathes, and he can come down cheap. In most cases, the mana is not going to be an issue. Would you rather draw a decent sized flier or something that can just win?
Spirit of the Hearth: I still think this guy is pretty solid. Walling yourself off from your opponents' spells is pretty good.

Okay, on to the other stuff.

Journeyer's Kite just isn't that great. It's 2 to get down and that's great. However it's 3 to search up a land and that land goes into your hand. Worse still is that it's only a basic. If the land came in tapped, I'd play it. If it only cost 2 to search (and still went to hand) I'd play it. I think 3 is too much. Is it worth playing simply because I can find another basic whenever I have a couple mana to spare? The Essentials would probably get all its basics out and sit around with a dead card.

Citanul Flute - I'm willing to give it another shot.

Reap and Sow - Current ways in the essentials to take out a land include Strip Mine, Wasteland, and Vindicate. Looking at this I tend to agree that another way to take out lands wouldn't hurt. I don't know if Reap and Sow is the best way to do it. I think I'd rather have Acidic Slime as more land search is currently unnecessary.

Lord of Extinction - So, should we now play every big, dumb, non-evasion player killer? Should I pull out my Copperhoof Vorrac? Remeber that guy? Your argument for not using that guy was the lack of evasion. He can be chumped again and again until they hit removal. Same with this Lord. Besides, the Essentials is a tool box and I can easily grab Mortivore any time.

Behemoth Sledge - Why is this questionable? Loxodon Warhammer has been in the deck since it was first printed. This just loses a power for 2 toughness. What's wrong with that?

Sudden Spoiling This has the potential to setup amazing defensive (or offensive) position. You can attack and be assured to kill all the blockers. It gets around all defensive abilities like regeneration or indestructible. However it's situational and might belong in the wish board. I haven't been able to decide how good it is. It might be worth trying out.

Rite of Replication This is creature removal for legends at the very least. Other times, you get yourself a DSC for 4. The very best times you make 5 Kokoshus for 9 and win.

Elspeth - All her abilities are solid. Why is she not good enough?

Prince of Thralls Too hateful for the multiplayer table?

Wild Research You're probably right.

Linvala Wishboard? Seems like the place for her.

Vengeful Dreams - I can go either way here. It's been great in the past, but whatever.

Goblin Bombardment Magmaw instead? Why? Magmaw has a cost and is still basically just saccing creatures. It's not too often I'll be saccing artifacts at stuff. Wait a sec.... I can sac my own Defense of the Heart? A Mind's Eye that's being killed? Okay. Fair enough. You've convinced me.

Mystic Snake Only being considered due to the lack of counters in the Essentials.

Qasali Pridemage As much as Jason will hate to hear it, you've convinced me with the card advantage argument. Acidic slime or Mold Shambler would be better.

Fight to the Death, Citanul Flute, Magmaw, Acidic Slime/Mold Shambler all added for consideration.

Next question, should Ancestral Recall be put on the list? Probably, huh? Just forgot to add it with all the other power.

Lastly, Acidic Slime or Mold Shambler? Mold Shambler costs one more mana to use, but hits planeswalkers. Mold Shambler will not trigger if brought in from the yard or Defense of the Hearted. Is the ability to hit planeswalkers worth the drawbacks?

I'm sorry, I meant I question Sledge AT then Expense of warhammer, not that I was questiong it at all, I failed to point that out thoiugh, and I had. I don;t see why both aren;t good.


I think both Acidic Slime and Mold SHambler are good. Obviously, Jason rpefers the one that takes out Planeswalkers and I prfer the deathtouch and one that takes out artiact creatures . TO my mind, the yare uber clos,e so grab the one you want the best.

[kerbythepurplecow]

Sure we could probably put Loxodon and Behemoth in there, but we only have 300 cards. It's a hefty limitation. If we weren't limited, I'd put both in there. With the upper limit I think it's more important to keep a good toolbox going.

Are there other equipments we've overlooked?

I think I slightly prefer Acidic Slime just because I can recur or what not and still get the ability. I don't know if planeswalkers are prevalent enough to make Mold Shambler the wiser choice. I suppose it's one or the other and then change it later if needed.

[jrr]

Magmaw saw nonland permanent... ooo nice... I did not notice that before.

As far as Acidic Slime and Moldshambler go, I actually run both. I generally prefer hitting Planeswalkers over artifact creatures, because most artifact creatures aren't really that scary, but having a plansewalker behind a good defense really is.

I understand the point about card advantage when you are talking about slime/shambler/pridemage, but this deck still needs to have some semblance of a curve and the 2 mana creature slot is pretty weak. Its painfully clear that CA is good, but at the cost of 3 or 4 mana? Really? I still disagree with the assessment of pridemage. He is one of the best 2 mana creatures printed to date and deserves a spot in the essentials. If you want to talk pure CA, Cruel Ultimatum is great in the CA department, but it isn't even considered for the deck. Or I could say well Ulamog is better than Moldshamber and Acidic slime because hes almost a darksteel and hes colorless, so he must be better (of course he costs 11, but if we just want CA and a body he does the trick).

Card advantage is good, but sometimes a great card is good too. Pridemage is one of those cards.

[TheAbe]

Magmaw saw nonland permanent... ooo nice... I did not notice that before.

As far as Acidic Slime and Moldshambler go, I actually run both. I generally prefer hitting Planeswalkers over artifact creatures, because most artifact creatures aren't really that scary, but having a plansewalker behind a good defense really is.

I understand the point about card advantage when you are talking about slime/shambler/pridemage, but this deck still needs to have some semblance of a curve and the 2 mana creature slot is pretty weak. Its painfully clear that CA is good, but at the cost of 3 or 4 mana? Really? I still disagree with the assessment of pridemage. He is one of the best 2 mana creatures printed to date and deserves a spot in the essentials. If you want to talk pure CA, Cruel Ultimatum is great in the CA department, but it isn't even considered for the deck. Or I could say well Ulamog is better than Moldshamber and Acidic slime because hes almost a darksteel and hes colorless, so he must be better (of course he costs 11, but if we just want CA and a body he does the trick).

Card advantage is good, but sometimes a great card is good too. Pridemage is one of those cards.

Mother of Runes is one of the best one drops ever printed, its never had a spot in the essentials. Neither has Soul Warden. Neither has Kird Ape or Skyshroud Elite. At the two spot, there has never been an argument for Tarmogoyf nor was their ever one for Watchwolf. I agree that Pridemage rocks, and I play them in some of my decks. I just don;t think it makes the curve here.

Obviously all of us will differ. I prefer some cards, like Avatar of Fury, which can attack for 8-10 damage in the air and costs two to play, and Aaron questions it. You like Pridemage more than I do, and I question it, etc. That's just the way it is, and that's okay.

Personally, I'd rather play good defense early in multiplayer than good offense. You are going to attakc one player, and no one else even gets touched, but you can defend afgainst everybody. I'd rather have Wall fo Blossoms or Omens rather than Watchwolf, and I'd rather have Fog Bank than Kird Ape - etc. That's why Taco was great, 1/3. blocks early drops, can kill small stuff, great life bump, but I agree its time to retire it from the essentials.

[kerbythepurplecow]

Why is Avatar of Fury better than something like Wrexial? I'm certain to hit something with Wrexial, and the ability is amazing. Does the potential mana savings make Avatar that much better? Is it the firebreathing? What makes him/it some much better than other potentials beaters?

For the record, and to add a bit to the Pridemage debate, the 2 mana spot is pretty much mana fixing. On the 1st - 3rd turns we want to mana fix or draw cards.

What about the rest of the stuff?

[jrr]

Ok, so moving on... O-Stone... I think I like decree of pain better... similar mana investment, but a better effect.

As far as Sudden Spoiling and Fight to the Death go, I feel like they both fill a similar role, namely fucking someone over, however they are both pretty situational and I can't think of anything I'd want to cut from the essentials to add either card.

[kerbythepurplecow]

Ok, so moving on... O-Stone... I think I like decree of pain better... similar mana investment, but a better effect.

As far as Sudden Spoiling and Fight to the Death go, I feel like they both fill a similar role, namely fucking someone over, however they are both pretty situational and I can't think of anything I'd want to cut from the essentials to add either card.

Nice observation. They are quite similar in cost. Decree draws a butt-ton of cards. I agree with your assessment.

Now as the other bit, with the new deck size, we don't have to have a replacement for every card. I think there's room to add something like Fight or Sudden Spoiling. The deck has nothing like either and I think it would be suiting to have one in the toolbox.

[jrr]

Nice observation. They are quite similar in cost. Decree draws a butt-ton of cards. I agree with your assessment.

Now as the other bit, with the new deck size, we don't have to have a replacement for every card. I think there's room to add something like Fight or Sudden Spoiling. The deck has nothing like either and I think it would be suiting to have one in the toolbox.

Well, both being instants, they at least deserve a spot in the wish board.
I'm still not convinced on Avatar of Fury staying, and I had not realized Wrexial was only 6 mana... I thought he was 8. I'm liking him more and more for a spot.