Outside [!OT]

[One Classy Bloke]

Seeing as you (Wiseman) don't want discuss this in the SoA topic, lets do it here.

I believe you when you say smoking is bad. But only in excess. Same case with alcohol. In fact, the french proved that the chances of getting heart disease can be lowered when not drinking to excess. Those major drugs, like LSD, Crack, Heroin, etc are the ones that should be discouraged (or better yet, explained fully). But it's really up to the person to think for themselves, and decide if to do drugs or not. If people are told to not do any drugs firmly, they will tend to want to try it more. The trill of doing the drug is normally what powers a person, because they know they shouldn't do it. Then, once they've started, they get addicted and can't stop.

Censoring by deleting posts will not work. People will heard about drugs everywhere else. I would of been happy to revise my post and remove any encourgement for people to form their own ideas about drinking, smoking and other drugs.

While it still wouldn't cause any problems for mankind if drugs didn't exist, it would be more boring.

[Xellos]

Smokings bad period, even the leastbit of smoke hurts you

Drinking I agree, is fine when not used in excess, and if the entire world did it liek Italy and other European countries handle alchohol there wouldn't be too much of a problem

[Nevan]

Yea I agree with Xel on that.

But Cancer patients and patients with an uncurable sickness diserve the grass/weed/whatever you care to call it. Also yea I agree OCB. I mean as long as you aren't saying SMOKE VIRGINIA SLIMS or advertising or talking about encouraging people to do it.

Just to go with OCB I want to say something, 5% of all British money has small traces of LSD. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Just thought that was cool.

[mrwiseman]

IRT OCB:

Your post violates the Granaboard Rules & Regulations. I'll turn a blind eye on it this time so we can discuss it, but please refrain from posting anything in favor of drugs from now on, otherwise I'll have to delete it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">I believe you when you say smoking is bad. But only in excess. Same case with alcohol.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
Smoking and drinking a lot does a lot of bad. Smoking and drinking a bit does a bit of bad. But it is always bad. Even though some wine producer paid doctors and low credibility professionals in a big alcoholic drinks producer like France said a bit of alcohol could be good, grape juice will do just as good, without killing your neurons like alcohol does. Yes, alcohol makes you stupider. You drink a lot =&gt; lots of neurons die =&gt; you become a lot stupider; you drink a bit =&gt; some neurons die =&gt; you become a little stupider. Besides, there are a hundred better ways of preventing heart diseases.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">But it's really up to the person to think for themselves, and decide if to do drugs or not</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that's what I call hipertolerance. We cannot aford to let some people think by themselves and be stupid on this, because when they are, they hurt their friends, their families, the ones who love them, their environment, the society, and the country, not to mention they waste health budget (in countries that have free health services like Spain - I think free health services are good, but I wouldn't give them to people who uses drugs).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">If people are told to not do any drugs firmly, they will tend to want to try it more</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
With the proper education in schools, TV, etc., people would understand why drugs are a road to death. However, changing the educational systems, especially in todays' political systems, is sloooooow. We should *ACT* before it's late. A lot of people is dying DAYLY because of drugs. We cannot wait a whole generation - a progressive drugs ban is needed. But to do that, a good, *brave* government is required, and I don't think such thing exists nowadays.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">The trill of doing the drug is normally what powers a person, because they know they shouldn't do it</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, sadly some people is THAT stupid. But we have the moral obligation to help them, even when they are so stupid (besides, they hurt everybody when they do drugs), so we should have to fight drugs back firmly. Besides, wouldn't you approve something that saves lives at no real costs? Personally, I would, anytime, anywhere.
Besides, we have an example of why not forbiding drugs doesn't help at all: Holland. Their sick, irresponsible government unbanned cannabis there - and being legal and cheaper, people take it more and more every day. So allowing all drugs/letting people think by themselves will NOT work for drugs - instead, it will make things worse.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">Censoring by deleting posts will not work</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
Moderating posts encouraging to use drugs, as well as moderating flaming posts, pro-terrorist posts, and other kinds of unacceptable contents is part of my policy, and I have no intention of changing it. Nothing I'm maintaning will be helping to kill people with drugs in any way, ever.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">While it still wouldn't cause any problems for mankind if drugs didn't exist, it would be more boring</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yeah, it would be a whole lot more boring to not have people dying everyday, broken families, streets dirty with drug derivated filth (addicts, graffiti, broken bottles, pukes, etc.), drug addict criminals, drug addict murderers, half of the car accidents with or without fatalities involving innocent people, high budgets we all pay to fight drugs back, and all those things that make one life's spicy and fun, right? I think you should think again on that particular phrase. I don't think you mean drugs are fun.

----

IRT Xellos:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">Smokings bad period, even the leastbit of smoke hurts you
Drinking I agree, is fine when not used in excess, and if the entire world did it liek Italy and other European countries handle alchohol there wouldn't be too much of a problem</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Drinking, even a bit, does some damage as well, not to mention it gives money to the devils who produce drugs that kill people. I don't think Italy nor any other country really controls alcohol.

----

Drugs are bad in any way and quantity. Bad for the ones who use them, bad for their families (sometimes DEADLY bad - how many wives, husbands, children, etc. have been attacked and/or killed by drug addict scum?), bad for their friends and related ones, bad for the people that see them, bad for the streets, bad for the society in general, bad for economy, bad for human evolution (lower intelligence, mentally defective people born out of sex with drunk persons, impotence, immortality, etc.), and a whole lot of more things.

And, as I said, it's not only that we have the moral obligation to help somebody that kills himself/herself without knowing, but it does hurt us and our environment when somebody uses drugs, so alcohol, tobacco, and all the other drugs should be forbidden forever, like stealing is.

[Cataferal]

This is what i think.

Drugs are natures way of saying hello. Im cool with that, so long as i know what i'll be taking. But quite often, if your offered something in the street, you dont know what else your getting with the mixture for "added effect" as they may say. You have no idea what your getting, and its almost gauranteed that it wont be the way nature intended it to be.

On the other hand...smoking. I dont mind older generation doing it because they were introduced to cigarrattes as a good, social and (in some cases) healthy activity. So many of that generation died because of the effects of tobacco, heck, i never met my grandma cos she died so fast. I plain hate smoking, but they werent to know back then.
But now, there are medical warnings all over the place, and the younger generation (ie, under 20) are choking packets of cigarettes down like there is no tomorrow. For them there will be a tomorrow, but they wont be so sure when they are 40 or 50 when their lungs look like charcoal. Suckers.

Overall, i have to agree with OCB, you have to leave people alone for them to decide for themselves whether to do drugs. You can leave them with information on all the drugs, so that they know what their in for, but any opinions given to them wont change their decision to take or leave them. More likely, they will contradict what you say. And even if they decide to agree with you, they may end up giving in to peer pressure.

[Dragonrider]

(note: when I'm referring to drugs here, I mean non-medical drugs, that are used to be abused, such as cocaine, as well as alchoholic beverages)

interesting thread....

I pretty strongly agree with Mike here.. (abusive, non-medical) drugs aren't good, exciting, or fun in any way.

Hundreds of Thousands of people die every year in a way related to drugs.

You know the Sept. 11 attacks? It is a 9/11 attack every week just because of cigarrettes, period. Not drunk driving, not crack, just cigarettes, its a 9/11 once a week. That many people die. Period.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma"> Drugs are natures way of saying hello. Im cool with that, so long as i know what i'll be taking. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I'm taking? What do you care what you're taking, it's going to be bad for you... unless you're talking about medical drugs there, I can't even concieve of where you're coming from. I mean, I wouldnt risk my life for "taking" anything. I mean, so what if you know if it is either LSD or crack?!?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma"> If people are told to not do any drugs firmly, they will tend to want to try it more. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is pretty much speculation unless you feel the urge to do drugs because people are telling you "you're gonna kill yourself, someone else, or your family if you do drugs". I personally don't get the urge to do drugs when someone tells me that. I've seen too many accidents where a guy that was hittin' the bottle too hard gets hurt, or hurts someone else because he just decided to drink a bottle of Jack Daniels and then hop into his Jeep. I think it IS the person's choice, but if you get them into an environment where drugs are the devil, people tend to plain avoid drugs! Human mentality is shaped so what the community believes/does, the reason is shaped to it. For instance, if the whole world didnt wear clothes, and felt no shame for wearing no clothes, would you wear clothes? That shame is generated by the fact that everyone wears clothes when they go to work.

That's pretty much my take on it, and I try to understand what some of y'all think, but I dont see the REASON behind it at all. I wish I did, but I can't see the REASON behind,

"While it still wouldn't cause any problems for mankind if drugs didn't exist, it would be more boring."

I just seriously don't get where that is coming from. If (abusive) drugs weren't around, then the world would be a much happier place. There are too many widows and orphans for it to even be a possiblity that it makes things "less boring". Now then, I know that there are many creative things that have been written or painted while a person was on drugs or drunk, and that made it creative (just look at the hippies of the 60's). but it is no reason to justify anything. Maybe if more people were willing to use their imaginiation and common sense the world would be less boring. I dont find the world boring at all, but I find it gross the amount of drugs there are. Period.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 22, 2003 08:56 PM: Message edited by: Dragonrider ]</font>

[Nevan]

Well I say that it is the people that actually abuse these drugs that are a true problem, not the drugs. Notice that they make the choice. Now then say we get rid of all the drugs and such then what, ban cars? ban guns? ban shoes!? anything can kill. ANYTHING! But it is the PERSON'S idea to chose to take that drug. Yes there are people trying to tempt you into it but then they are giving into peer presure. Therefore there will always be someone there trying to make your decisions for you. Drugs or not. Someone might come out and say, "Hey you wimp! Yea, you! Why don't you drive that car there into the building over there? If not then no one will like you!". Then they say sure. Boom an accident, but it was mainly meant to be. I say in a way that people need to stop feeling such low self esteem. I mean think about it. I say 95% of the people that do drugs did them because they saw their friends/an add/or someone forced them to. They could have not. But who knows one day we might could use these to our advatage to cure stuff in a good form without side effects.

[Dragonrider]

Like Mike said, YES, THERE ARE STUPID PEOPLE! AND IF THEY USED THEIR COMMON SENSE IT'D BE ALRIGHT!

But the problem is, THEY KILL OTHER PEOPLE BESIDES THEMSELVES.

Other people, who MAY NOT TAKE DRUGS, THAT ARE TOTALLY INNOCENT AND FINE.

Why should they die because of some junkie?

Getting rid of drugs is a plan that would be perfect with me. Shoes could kill someone, but they aren't 'abused' normally, people dont like using them as weapons, etc. If shoes became something that people died to too much, fuck em, use sandals instead. What I'm saying is, people are stupid, but innocent people shouldn't die because of them. It is better to get RID of the drugs so there isnt even a CHANCE for stupid people to go that far.

I mean, (this is just totally in posing a good argument N, not to diss you or anything) but what you sorta said sounded like "they can make their own choice, why should we move our asses, if it's THEIR fault?"

Well that's the problem, too many people (in authority) WONT move their lazy asses, or are too cowardly to do something about it. Saying they have a choice is almost like an excuse. THEY HAVE A CHOICE, AND MOST PEOPLE MAKE THE WRONG ONE, RESULTING IN INNOCENT DEATH. So why not get rid of drugs? When has an (abusive, non-medical drug) REALLY helped someone? Like really. I've heard stuff about marijuana and medical purposes and alchohol and the heart, but really, its pretty much bullshit. There's better ways to help yourself without hurting yourself in the process.

On alchohol: My best friend's dad was going to be a pro-quarterback right after leaving college, and he didnt even hit the bottle that hard, but he DID drink just a bit too often. He never really was drunk, but if you drink 2 beers at a party, and you're partying 3 times a week, I mean, you may just get disoriented, and he lost his shot. He's a great (very happy) man, but I bet you that he regrets it every morning when he wakes up.

[melfice]

Wine, taken with moderation, say only a cup with each meal, reduces the danger of heart attacks. That is proved.

Alcohol, if taken excesively, or drugs, are some of the worst things a person can do, or use. I myself do not have the experience, and of course, i don't want to have it, but i know people whose life and their familiy's was destroyed because of it.

A friend of mine, had a father who was alcoholic. The father was a bad person, to say the least, She still has nightmares with him, even if her dad is dead since long time.

Drugs are used to show the people that you are "independent" or "Mature" enough to take them. IMO, that is a mistake, drugs using to "prove" that you are independient or mature are just evidences that you aren't it, because, you need a proof to know something you should be by yourself, you DEPEND on that to show your independency... Is easy to see the contradiction isn't it?

[Daigotsu]

I pretty much agree with Dragonrider and Wiseman. My father used to be an alchoholic but luckily he got his act together before he hurt someone, he's been sober for over ten years now I think. In some cases I can understand people turning to drugs for some form of comfort in their life. My dad had a really bad childhood, I'd rather not go into detail, but it wasn't his fault so he turned to drugs. I'm just saying I don't understand people using drugs for fun but in some cases it is understandable why someone would do drugs because of certain circumstances.