guitar speakers

[Old Guy]

Hey Bfish- how the heck are ya?

As I said- I got spec sheets to back me up.
This is the EVM 12S spec sheet:

http://archives.telex.com/archives/E...line%20EDS.pdf

Here's the crucial part:

Its shallow cone provides extra output in the critical 700 to 3000 hz range.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I noted, the 12S has a short frame and a shallow cone for extra mids. Nowhere near as popular as the regular model. We sold 12L's in a ratio of about 75 to one against the S model.

The ER12 (no suffix) was a very short lived model.
It was the EVM 12B which sold miserably. I doubt more exist than whatever Altec's first order was.

I do know a year later you couldn't even get parts for it,(naturally the EVM version too), we reconed all we had as 12L's.

THAT one I don't have a spec sheet for, but I did call a reconer friend who says my gray matter stll functions, at least on a basic level.

Hopefully this puts it to bed.

I would like to expand on a couple points I made.

As I posted, the Kustom SRO 12 and the EVM 12 were the same speaker. 417 noted the black metal dome on the SRO's, a opposed to the paper dome of the EVM. This is accurate. However all recones went to EV and came back with paper. Same for the 15L and 15B.


I've never done frequency response comparisons of the 417 and the EVM. From a subjective listening, the Altec is noticeably brighter.

The following is entirely subjective and my opinion.


I do want to say, the EV wasn't a BAD speaker. the Altec was just a better GUITAR speaker. If I had a choice for mains on a PA I'd pick the EV hands down. It will take a lot more abuse, and it doesn't sound bad if you have a high frequency system on top of it. 90% of the EV/ER/SRO 12's we sold were for sound reinforcement use.

But for full range use, ie guitar, the 417 makes the EV sound like it's got a blanket thrown over it.

Were I building a stage monitor, with a small HF horn due to the compact enclosure, I'd use the 417.

[bfish]

Feel like **** , O.G., thanks for asking! Sinuses running like a 4th of July fire hydrant, and a cough that makes my toenails hurt....hence the multiple 2AM posts......can't sleep, might as well poke the pig to make it squeal....

Thanks for the additional info. I agree there's little comparison between 417s and EVMs/ERs. I've got 417s in all but one of my guitar cabs, as well as some 1231 stage monitors. M.I. gear is subjective though, so I suggest that prospective buyers try playing before paying, to see if the sound of an item is what they're seeking. I have a friend that loves a compressed sound, and he runs a 4x12 cab of EVM-12Ls under a 50W Marshall head, which he likes better than running a compressor inline with 'cleaner' speakers, and verifies your "blanket" analogy. I'd call the small-frame 417s a clean speaker, and the large frame 417s extremely clean. If you want any distortion from either, you'll have to make it with your amp or effects.

Since this thread's titled "guitar speakers", I might add I think the Jensen P12N has a sweet tone when coupled with low-medium powered tube amps, 'specially for blues players.

I'm also curious to the answer to Charles' question, re the heavy vs light alum dust caps used on 417s. I suspect it was simply a sourcing/cost issue, but would like to know for sure.

I've got an OEM EVM-12L with a coil rub/sunken spider that came with a lot of stuff I bought awhile back. Have you got any kits left, or know of a source? My boat has a full complement of anchors, so I might as well fix the 12L and sell it.

[Russ Farrell]

I apologize to all of you for my posts. When I found this site I liked it. I thought providing a view from the inside would be helpful and fun - it wasn't. (Enjoyed the cookies & juice though). I just managed to get a lot of you "huffed". Not my intent. Sorry.

I found my copies of the ER series specification sheets, the preliminary one and AL-2526, the final version. Note that these are for the one I was talking about: no suffix and a 2" voice coil (not 2-1/2").

I will be happy to send photocopies to any of you who mail a self-addressed stamped envelope to P.O. Box 9673 Anaheim CA 92812 postmarked by the end of this month. Please, no reply's to this post, no E-mails and no note with the envelope. I'll know what its for. The End. Roll the credits.

"it Isn't Easy Being Green" by Kermit the Frog, as often quoted by the late Robert Trabue Davis, former VP of Professional Market Development, Altec Corporation. Amen, Bob. RIP.

[Old Guy]

Russ, an apology isn't necessary. Perhaps even it may be that you are owed one. One of the problems with net posts is you don't see the other person's body language. It's easier for things to sound much more hostile than they are.
Heck man, I wasn't gonna punch you out over some speakers. A redhead maybe, but not some speakers.

The one line that did get my dander up was:

But most musicians (and guitar amp companies) liked the Electro Voice EVM-12L type for their upgrade lead guitar amps.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's true that a lot more EVM's were sold. Some of these were sold as Altecs during your tenure. It was harder to get 417's and the EV's were a lot cheaper. But where I worked 90% of the EV's went into sound reinforcement boxes. Virtually 100% of the Altec 417's we got went into guitar cabinets. As a consequence, more Altecs were sold as guitar speakers than EV's, in spite of the fact they cost more and sold fewer. Several other vendors have shared the same experience with me.

Manufacturers at the time were driven by economics. The EV sounded better than a **** speaker. It was the cheapest upgrade speaker at the time. Eminence was still learning how to make speakers.The celestion's price went up and down with fluctuations of the British pound. Celestion supply was erratic.

And $27 a pop was most of a day's pay for an employee at the time. A lot to save per unit. On a 2-12" amp they saved more than an employee workday in savings.

It took a long time for this to happen. The EV's were around for some 8 years before most manufacturers switched. It took Altec's money and supply problems to drive people to the EV's.

I remember more than one guitar player saying "I'm not gonna put those hogs in my twin."

They made amps a lot harder to carry because of their extra weight. The sound issue has already been discussed.


Both the EVM and the 417 are gone from the scene. The guitar speaker market is owned by Celestion (now Chinese owned, but they still retain the original engineering section) and Eminence. A recent shootout gave Celestion the number one spot and Eminece number 3. The kicker was the number 2 speaker was an Eminence OEM.

My point is this- if the EV's were the favorite they would cost more than used Altec's. They don't, by a substantial margin. I rest my case.

You did confuse the issue with:

The first production runs were brought out in retail versions as the ER10, ER12, and ER15.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Most of these WERE EV's leading me to believe that's what you were talking about.


A very, very minor point, I want to correct for the sake of posterity. Altec was not purchased by Mark IV. Altec was purchased by Gulton, owner of EV. They had a relationship for a while since they were marketing the EV speakers. I don't know if Altec was even offered for sale. At least I saw none of it in the trades. Tends to make me believe the takeover was more gradual than commonly thought. AFAIK a deal was struck with Gulton for the assets and it was over.

Gulton, then, was later bought out by Mark IV.

Hindsight is 20-20, many are the times I've wished another buyer besides Gulton had popped up.


Lastly- I would be interested in a copy of that TL. Always looking for ones I don't have, and it sends me on another chase. It would appear that there are 2 different ER-12's (no suffix).

Would it be an inconvenience to have a copy shop scan it to pdf format? We can help you find free space where it can be posted on the web for downloads. I'd love copies of any of the later stuff you have. There's a huge bulge in my collection from late 60's when I first got into sound up to about 1979 when I became a manager. It gradually slows down and ends after that. Older and newer Altec sheets are in short supply with me.


I have heard rumors that Great Plains is thinking about reissuing the 417? Maybe someone in the know could clue us in?

[bfish]

Originally posted by Old Guy:
Russ, an apology isn't necessary. Perhaps even it may be that you are owed one. One of the problems with net posts is you don't see the other person's body language. It's easier for things to sound much more hostile than they are.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree.

Members of this forum have traditionally held better decorum and, overall, exhibit better manners than those on most other similar forums, and I hope that tradition will continue. The Altec "family" is diverse, and like any family, disagreements occasionally arise, usually from misunderstandings of selected text, but we get over it. If we held these discussions in person, I feel such problems would seldom arise. Most issues are the result of confusing opinion with facts.

That said, and getting back on topic;

Regarding MI gear, musicians are not bound by the rigid rules that audiophiles adhere to, and are free to make their music sound any way they want. Therefore, it's my OPINION that there never was, and never will be a "BEST" MI speaker or amp. There are "most populars" and "favorites", but never a "best".

In order to get to the bottom of the EVM/ER issue, I am including comparative specs published by both EV and Altec, as well as the sources of the info;

EVM-12L 80-5000Hz in 1.3 cu/ft vented, sens 1W1M 100dB. pwr 300W, 8 ohms, 2.5" VC of flat edgewound be/cu, Fs 55, Qes 0.245, Qms 4.37, Qts 0.232, Vas 82.8L-2.9cu/ft, Xmax 3.3mm- 0.13", Sd 78 sq/in, OD 310mm-12.2", depth 138mm-5.5", net wt 8.6kg-19lb, mag structure 16lb

EVM-12L Specs;
http://archives.telex.com/archives/E...-12L%20EDS.pdf

EVM-12S 80-7000Hz in 1.3 cu/ft vented, sens 1W1m NA, pwr 300W, 8 ohms, 2.5" VC flat edgewound, Fs 70, Qes 0.257, Qms 7.02, Qts 0.248, Vas .0563 cu/M-2.0cu/ft, Xmax 3.3mm- 0.13", Sd 78 sq/in, Re 5.2 ohms, OD 31 cm-12.21", depth 14.2cm-5.6", net wt 8.6kg-19lb, mag structure 16lb

EVM-12S Specs (1983);
http://archives.telex.com/archives/E...line%20EDS.pdf

Altec ER-12L sens 100dB 1W1M, pwr 200W AES, 8 ohms, Fs 55, Qes 0.25, Qms 4.37, Qts 0.23, Vas 2.9cu/ft, Xmax 0.13", Sd NA, Re 5.2 ohms, Vd 10.1cu/in

Altec ER-12S sens 101dB 1W1M pwr 200W AES, 8 ohms, Fs 70, Qes 0.26, Qms 7.02, Qts 0.25, Vas 2.0cu/ft, Xmax 0.13", Sd NA, Re 5.2 ohms, Vd 10.1cu/in

Altec T/S parameters;
http://alteclansingunofficial.nlenet...ele-Small.html

Based primarily on this info, and secondarily on previous posts in this thread, I reached the following conclusions;

1. The EV EVM-12L and EVM-12S share the same frame and cone. Note that the EVM-12S is actually listed as being slightly DEEPER than the EVM-12L, contrary to O.G.'s post. However, the slight variations of published frame depth may be from the inclusion (or lack of) the depth of the heat-sink-style rear cover. They weigh the same. Both have a Vd of 78 square inches, so the cone dimensions are the same as well.

2. The EV EVM-12L is LIKELY identical to the Altec ER-12L.

3. The EV EVM-12S is LIKELY identical to the Altec ER-12S

4. The Altec ER-12 (no suffix) was an Altec design instead of a relabeled EV.

Tear it up at will, you can't hurt my feelings, and I only seek the real truth.

[bfish]

Correction to my last post;

In the latter portion of the post, in Conclusion #1, I stated both drivers have a Vd of 78 square inches. That should have read Sd of 78 square inches. I proofed the whole post twice before submitting, but missed that error. See how easy it is to screw up?

[Old Guy]

Howdy Bfish. I disagee, as you probably expected. Remember- I've sold, physically handled and set up service for these critters.

First, trusting dimensions on Altec spec sheets is potluck. The same item can have different dimensions depending on which sheet you are reading.

I posted a line clipped from an EV sheet which stated the 12S had a shallow cone.

Here are links to the 12S and 12L (engineering data sheets).

http://archives.telex.com/archives/E...line%20EDS.pdf

http://archives.telex.com/archives/E...line%20EDS.pdf

They say the 12L is 6 inches deep. The 12S is 5.60 inches deep. This fits with all the experiences I've had.

To add to the confusion, there is a spec showing the 12L as 5.5 inches deep- this is however without the fake heat sink. Originally on all but OEM units, it was eventually dropped as a cost cutting measure.

This may contribute to some of the confusion. Alos- I do believe the back plate changed a little between models- so make sure to compare specs from the same series, be it Proline, Series 2, etc.

And last- the recone kits. The only place I could find them was Thomann. They show seperate recone kits for each.

http://www.thomann.de/thoiw2_ev_evm1...rtner_id=25293

http://www.thomann.de/thoiw2_ev_evm1...rtner_id=25293

Why would they list different numbered kits at different prices if they are the same?

Your serve.

I'm really interested in the no suffix model.
Unfortunately the only info available seems to be the one spec sheet. I've been web searching all over the place. Can't find parts or nothin'.

[Old Guy]

Bfish- note you compared the original EVM to the Proline 12S.

I compared the Proline of both versions.

Their may be changes in other parts, such as the thickness of the back plate. The spec sheets you compared are probably 5 years apart.

[Old Guy]

Bfish- note you compared the original EVM to the Proline 12S.

I compared the Proline of both versions.

Their may be changes in other parts, such as the thickness of the back plate.

[bfish]

----"Howdy Bfish. I disagee, as you probably expected."

It's great to finally find someone I can disagree with in a pleasant and civil manner!

----"Remember- I've sold, physically handled and set up service for these critters."

I haven't.

----"First, trusting dimensions on Altec spec sheets is potluck. The same item can have different dimensions depending on which sheet you are reading."

Agreed, though I wouldn't limit that phenomena to Altec.

...............

----"Your serve."

You win (sort of), I'll concede conclusion # 1. I finally found my old recone supply catalog, which shows the 12L cone at 3" deep, and the 12S at 2.5". This still begs why EV rated both cones as having the same surface area, given the same OD, ID, and dust cap,but different depths, which is what I based the conclusion on.

----"I'm really interested in the no suffix model."

I think Russ gave us a pretty good background on the ER-12 already, but detailed specs would be nice. Might be a real sleeper, as I have complete faith that Don Leslie's son knew his stuff regarding good tone and MI gear. Hopefully, we haven't p---d Russ off, and he'll continue to share his experiences with us. I certainly apologize if I did.

You mentioned an EVM-12B as a possible equivalent to the ER-12. I can find no evidence that an EVM-12B ever existed. (though there was a 15B) I think the ER-12 is as Russ described, and wasn't subject to EV influence other than as a competitor.

It IS nice that we can reach valid conclusions via discussion and presentation of evidence, rather than the name-calling, flame war this would have descended to on most other forums.

I think we both have too much time on our hands......


CHEERS!