411A versus 3154 as subwoofers

[Jack6428-2]

Hello,

I have both 411A and 3154, 8 ohm, 15-inch woofers that I am considering using as subwoofers or my HiFi or home theater.

Both have the very flexible foam surround instead of the accordion surround.

Does anyone have any spec sheets and recommendations on which one would be the better choice.

Also, what would be a good cabinet size and port dimensions to pursue lowest bass?

Thanks in advance.

Nebraska Guy

[Old Guy]

Hi- I had a stereo system running 411B's, it worked pretty well. The 411 likes a sealed box.
If memory serves I ran them in a box voume of about 6.5 cubic feet. I say approximately because I didn't figure the volume of the HF horn and driver (they were in the same box) down to the exact values- I just got close.

The 3154 as I understand is for ported boxes, haven't worked with them much. You can get TS parameters, and use a box design program to calculate optimum box an porting. Maybe some of the other posters here can shed mor light than I can .
There is a 411a shhet at:
http://alteclansingunofficial.nlenet...ers/lflit.html

Hopefully someone here knows of a 3154 sheet, regretfully I don't.

[bfish]

I've used both, and while the 3154 is certainly no slouch, and does a little better with low mids, they're no match for a good 411-8A.

Note I said good 411, many of the old originals have worn out surrounds and spiders. I put Bill's 411 kits in mine....still grinnin'.....

GM once sim'd a 411 in a vented alignment, don't remember the details, but a search for 411 will find it.

[Old Guy]

My poor old brain forgets a lot these days- fortunately most of the time it's not forever.

But I meant to add:

Since you are considering them for subs, this won't matter. But the 411 doesn't like a high crossover frequency. I didn't care for them at 800 hz. I thought they sounded better at 500 or even 300-400 if you can afford 311's. Ebay prices on 311's have gone thru the roof. I think I could reissue them and make money at the current prices.

I'm not sure where the 3154 likes to be cutoff.

BTW, I apologize for my lousy typing- I never did much more than the 2 finger method- and it doesn't lend itself well to someone typing away with arthritic abandon.

[GM]

Greets!

Assuming it's a true sub, i.e. XO <100 Hz, then the 3154 is the no-brainer choice, but either driver requires a huge cab to go down to the 16 Hz many action movies today require, so can you tolerate at least a 20-25 ft^3 cab?

Actually, some movies and a few music CDs have content <10 Hz, so a multiple driver IB is required if you want to reproduce all of the signal, assuming your electronics can handle it.

GM

[guestman]

I suggest using the program winISD, but enter the correct driver parameters not the ones provided for the 3154. With my quickie run on that program- approximate 6.4 (internal) cubic foot ported box will on "paper" give you a 3db down at 30hz. That program will allow you to tweak both box volume and port tuning and let you see how it effects the output curve. There is a pro version also yet unless you are very technical(can make your own measurements of speaker specs) it seems a little much.
Personally for a sub for theatre use I prefer the sound of a 4th order box(bandpass), yet I also tend to build a true sub box with a slight gain and not a perfectly flat response. The slight advantage is that type of box has a natural cut of higher frequencies due to its design.
No matter the type of box make sure you use good materials, MDF (medium density fibre board) at the minimum and for that volume at least 1.5" thick(two .75 cut and glued together is cheaper than actual 1.5) and brace it WELL. Good luck with a little work those subs could be disturbing the neighbors with odd rumblings

[Jack6428-2]

Thanks everyone for the great feedback.

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bfish:
Note I said good 411, many of the old originals have worn out surrounds and spiders. I put Bill's 411 kits in mine....still grinnin'.....

************************
Yes ? I will be reconing my pair with GPA materials.
Does GPA still use the foam surround or have they changed to an accordion surround like they now sell when you order the 3182 18-inch recone?
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bfish:
I've used both, and while the 3154 is certainly no slouch, and does a little better with low mids, they're no match for a good 411-8A.

Old Guy:
Since you are considering them for subs, this won't matter. But the 411 doesn't like a high crossover frequency. I didn't care for them at 800 hz. I thought they sounded better at 500 or even 300-400 if you can afford 311's. Ebay prices on 311's have gone thru the roof. I think I could reissue them and make money at the current prices.

GM:
Assuming it's a true sub, i.e. XO <100 Hz, then the 3154 is the no-brainer choice, but either driver requires a huge cab to go down to the 16 Hz many action movies today require, so can you tolerate at least a 20-25 ft^3 cab?

************************
I'm actually in the process of making one HiFi and multiple home theater setups.

Also, I?ve made it even tougher by having gathered up over the last year a large pile of speakers and cabinets to choose from.

I have the 411A and 3154 15-inchers, but also have 18-inch 3182?s and 3184?s as well as 421-8LF?s and 421-8H Series II?s.

And I have the following cabinets:

1. 828?s ? for HiFi, will use 4-way active Rane crossover with separate power amps. Speakers / xovers frequencies are: a 411A or 3154 or 421LF or 421HSII or 3184 or 3182 sub /will put in bottom of 828 or in separate cab/ up to 80 or 100Hz, a 515B for 80/100 to 400Hz, a 311-90 /paid the crazy Ebay prices/ with 290E phenolic drivers for 400Hz to 4 or 5KHz, and a small horn /couple choices here too/ with an 802G for 4/5KHz to top end.
2. 816 vented flared horn boxes /one woofer capacity/
3. 817 ? /holds two woofers/
4. custom cabinet, flat faced cabinet, 4X4X2 feet /32ftcubed/ with two 12X12X12 square ports supposeably tuned for use with 2-3184 18-inchers

My preamp for HiFi /and later for home theater system #3 in same room as HiFi/ is going to be an Adcom GTP-880 home theater unit. This unit has a special feature /call it the Analog Mode/ that allows you to bypass the digital circuitry so you can play an audio CD directly without the added signal processing distortion the digital theater processing may add. To further complicate matters /hopefully for the good/ it has a subwoofer feature that you have the option to engage when in the Analog Mode. You can have the subwoofer replace the 100Hz or below range of you CD stereo R/L channel with the subs or you can have the extra subwoofer enhance /the R/L stereo keeps the below 100Hz in addition to sending to the sub/. If I used this option with the extra sub as an enhancer, then the subs in the 828 cabinets /stereo R/L channel/ would continue to get the lowest frequencies as well as the backup subwoofer.

So this means if I did the above /sub in 828?s as well as enhancement sub/ then I would have the need for two subwoofer applications.

I?m thinking maybe a compromise could be:

For HiFi:
- To put the 411?s in the 828?s for the normal HiFi R/L channels, and put the 3154?s in the 816?s / or put the 2-3184?s in the 32 cubic foot custom cab/ or put 1-3182 in the 32 cubic foot cab, for the bonus subwoofer output of the Adcom preamp.

For HomeTheater:
- Have the 828?s configured as above for the Front R/L
- For the sub channel, use the sub chosen for the HiFi enhancement from above selection or have a switch to patch in an separate 18-inch sub /1-3182 or 2-3184?s/ to get down to the extreme lows a movie can require.

The 828 box with a 411A:
What sealed volume should I give to the 411A versus what volume and port size should I leave for the 515B /remember the 515B only needs to work from 80/100 to 400 Hz/? Do I need to pour sand / kitty litter into the flared hollow cavities of the 515B section since it will only be required to produce 80/100 to 400Hz?
--------------------------------
GM:
Actually, some movies and a few music CDs have content <10 Hz, so a multiple driver IB is required if you want to reproduce all of the signal, assuming your electronics can handle it.

*************************
What?s a multiple driver IB?
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guestman:
I suggest using the program winISD, but enter the correct driver parameters not the ones provided for the 3154.

************************************************** *
I will post a new thread on speaker cabinet design and speaker Theil Parameter measuring software.
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Thanks again everyone and I?m sorry I always seem to make my posts so complicated!

[bfish]

GPA's 411 kits use the foam surrounds.

That's quite a collection you've gathered!

[Jim Butler]

Wow, that is an amazing collection.

An IB is an infinite baffle subwoofer array that vents the back wave of the driver(s) into a true infinite space, ie. a garage, attic, or basement. Certain drivers will play to their full xmas and fs limits rendering incredible bass. If you want the biggest bang for the buck, IMHO its the way to go.
Check out the website called "The Cult Of the Infinitely Baffled"

JIm Butler

[Jack6428-2]

As is usually the case, I start a thread then realize there have already been a lot of previous posts dealing with the subject. A little research on 411 threads come up with:

1. A vented box of 10 cubic feet, with a 5 inch wide by 6 to 11 inch long vent; however, an 18 cubic foot vented box was stated as optimum.

2. A sealed box of 10 feet cubed - Altec ?9846?.

3. A sealed box of 8 feet cubed ? Altec Santiago?

4. Some say the 411 have extremely compliant suspensions so should only be used in a sealed enclosure.

I?d like to put the 411?s into my 828?s in the lower area to serve as subs 80 or 100 Hz ? down, and still keep the 515 in the standard spot to serve for 80/100 to 400 Hz.

Not sure what to do ? vent or seal the 411?s ? vent or seal the 515?s ? close off the 411 from the 515 / if so how to split the available volume.

Any help is greatly appreciated.