Critical Listening

[voice of the theater]

Altec Best, just gave a friend a pair of mint birch cornwall 1's,who was in need of a pair of speakers. They sound good after modding them. You can play almost any recording on them and they sound good. My 19's to my ears are very source dependant for my ears, in the space I have. When the recording is clean, they are spectacular!!!! Next time I post pictures I will use your advice. Thanks again!!!

I didn't want to hijack the Model 19 Veneer thread (which I've learned a lot from --thanks all!) but it raised some questions for me. Regarding the previous quote from that thread, it has been my experience with audiophile speakers that the "better" the speakers are, the more critical they are of the source material. That is, if you're listening to a great sounding recording (something that was recorded, mixed, and mastered really well), that recording will sound amazing on a great pair of speakers. On the other hand, if you're listening to a recording that was either recorded, mixed, or mastered in a less than ideal manner, the flaws in that substandard source material will be very clearly audible on that same great pair of speakers, and those flaws will be less noticeable on lesser speakers. Same thing for components, if your amp or turntable cartridge or CD player etc. is less than ideal, the inadequacies of those components will be very noticeable on the "better" speakers (more accurate/"critical" reproducers), and less noticeable on lesser speakers. I agree with juniper that speakers like the Model 19's (and Model 14's for example) are very much source dependent, they are such clean, accurate reproducers (and with wide bandwidth), that if your source recording or other stereo system components are less than ideal, you will be able to clearly hear those deficiencies. On the other hand, if you have great components and some great recordings to listen to, they will sound better on those speakers than on lesser speakers. Are these "correct" observations/assumptions--anyone else agree/disagree? I'm basing it on experience--every time I've upgraded my speakers in the past, I've noticed that the "better" pair is more critical of recordings and of other components in my system than the pair of speakers that they replaced. Since I've bought my Model 19's and 14's, I can tell more than ever if an LP, CD, or DVD (or digital cable broadcast) is "good" or mediocre or "poor" whereas on earlier speakers the difference between one source recording and another was not as noticeable. Likewise, since upgrading my Altecs, I've (had to?) upgraded my amplifiers and phono cartridges and the combined effect of the speaker and component upgrades are incredible.

IMHO, that's one reason why the Model 19's and Model 14's are named/considered (by Altec) to be Studio Monitors. It's because they are such accurate reproducers, that they are ideal for critical listening -- including (but of course not limited to) mixing and monitoring in a recording studio. They make EVERYTHING you're listening to (strengths and weaknesses of recordings and components) very clearly audible. I'm currently recording/mixing a new (rock) album with my band, and I can tell you that using Model 19's as studio monitors this time (first time we've recorded/mixed with them) is a learning experience. We're learning things about our "gear" (guitars, drums, keyboards, vocals etc. and the effects we use on them) that we've never noticed/been able to hear so clearly before. It's been a real learning experience, but I can already say that in the mixing and mastering stage it has made things much easier. I used to mix on my previous Altecs, and play those recordings back on other Altecs I had in the house (as well as on my car stereo and boom box) to make sure the recording/mix sounded good on everything I played it on. Often times it did not--I'd hear some problem on the (decent sounding) boom box or other Altecs or car stereo that I didn't notice while mixing the song(s), and go back and remix it / fix the problem until the recording sounded great everywhere/on every system I played it on. With the Model 19's (and we use the 14's for playbacks as well for comparative purposes), after a song is mixed, we much more rarely hear problems with the mix on other stereos/boom boxes/ etc. If the mix passes the "scrutiny" of the 19's and 14's, it (most times) passes everything else. I think this is because of the same assumptions in my first paragraph here?

In a similar vein, I've had to upgrade my headphones since upgrading to the Model 19's and 14's. When mixing past recordings, while mixing, I'd switch back and forth between the headphones and my "old" (previous) Altecs and would often hear nuances on the headphones that I didn't hear on the Altecs. The headphones really helped to "second guess"/fine tune the mixes we were getting. Once I bought Model 19's and 14's, as soon as I switched from the Altecs to the headphones for comparative purposes while mixing, about the only thing I noticed was that the headphones didn't sound as "good" as the speakers (and they were nice headphones--Sennhiesers)! So, I had to upgrade headphones too--and it wasn't easy finding a pair of headphones that didn't sound (considerably) worse than my current Altecs. Anyone else out there with 19's (or any "high end vintage Altecs"--which I bet is most of the people here) have trouble finding headphones that could keep up?

[gvasale]

My answer to your question goes something like this. You Should be able to discern more with a better speaker. Practice and comparason help develop listening skills. This can be difficult to put into words because of the personal interpretation we all make, but I respect the statement that says better speakers "should" have similar sound qualities. What we're searching for is natural accurate sound.
Not all speakers have the dynamic capabilities of Altec, and that is one reason I favor them. I have many LP recordings which sound like crap on them too, but no other choice may have been available for that selection at that time. But quite frquently a new version on a CD seems like going from black&white to color, or taking off the raincoat in a shower.

I've listened to a lot of speakers in the decade I spent selling speakers in the retail marketplace frrom the late 60s through the the mid 70s. Are there other speakers I thought were very good? Yes. Do I own other speakers than Altec? Yes, a few. The Altecs get used the most. Are or were there other speakers I would have liked to Own? Yes a few. It doesn't make much of a difference now, as the best 40 years of my life have gone by.

Koss ESP 9s are my headphones of choice.


Now, I may not have helped with my answer, but I stopped upgrading things a long time ago, but to me one very noticable change was when I first got the Marantz SLT 12-U turntable, and Frank Zappa's album Hot Rats hit the shelves. Willie the Pimp sounded exceptional regarding transient response with that turntable. But, like sex for the first time...

[Nipper]

Are these "correct" observations/assumptions--anyone else agree/disagree?

They are absolutely correct. You will find your observations will also apply even more so to video equipment. When you have the "best" its easy to tell when someone else did not.

Since most everything has gone digital I don't hear as much difference as I used to. I'm sure this has made things tougher on the sound guys. Their talent shows more now.

You are on the right track, at least in my opinion.

[cradeldorf]

All I can report is that when watching movies I can totally tell when the sound guy was asleep at the wheel and sounds that don't fit the situation.
For example on the movie Land of the lost they have the dinosaur running at them but the stomping sound every time his feet hit doesn't get louder as he gets closer. you can really notice when the sound people are not using the best equipment to do they're job.

[Panomaniac]

And really notice when they are. The sound design and mixing on the new "True Grit" is phenomenal. Subtle, but well done.

[VolvoHeretic]

I tried to watch Tron last night threw our little upstairs stereo and had to turn the stereo off. I couldn't hear any dialog because the sound track was too damned loud, and the bass was rediculously overboosted. I want seperate volume knobs for the dialog and the soundtrack. I have pretty much given up on watching movies (and car racing for that matter, but for the opposite reason) because of it. The same reason I haven't stepped inside a movie theater in a decade.

Edit; This seems to be a new phenomenon, I used to watch movies threw my A7's; Star Wars, Star Trek, and Jurassic Park always impressed the kids, but nowadays...

[cradeldorf]

I tried to watch Tron last night threw our little upstairs stereo and had to turn the stereo off. I couldn't hear any dialog because the sound track was too damned loud, and the bass was rediculously overboosted. I want seperate volume knobs for the dialog and the soundtrack. I have pretty much given up on watching movies (and car racing for that matter, but for the opposite reason) because of it. The same reason I haven't stepped inside a movie theater in a decade.

Edit; This seems to be a new phenomenon, I used to watch movies threw my A7's; Star Wars, Star Trek, and Jurassic Park always impressed the kids, but nowadays...

My speakers used to be the same way but with my new cabs I don't notice it as much. The soundtrack is still louder than the dialect but the dialect is a lot louder now than it used to be so they seem more even now.

[Panomaniac]

I also find this problem a lot listening to recent movies at home. They don't seem to be mixed with 2 channel in mind. Music and effects are way too loud. I don't hear that at the local cinema, tho with proper L-C-R and surround.

[Nipper]

I also find this problem a lot listening to recent movies at home. They don't seem to be mixed with 2 channel in mind. Music and effects are way too loud. I don't hear that at the local cinema, tho with proper L-C-R and surround.

Yep. Most are recorded for 5:1 or 7:1
What in hell are they thinking? Who has room for seven Valencias?

[GM]

Are these "correct" observations/assumptions--anyone else agree/disagree?

Absolutely, with degree increasing with increasing efficiency. If you think M19s are 'picky'/'revealing', add another ~15 dB of efficiency [stereo] and most vinyl spun more than a few times were too noisy for critical listening if not seriously rolled off up top.

GM