Markwart 605 XO cap values

[GM]

Could be PIO?

Non PCB, so no, what they call HAZY film foil. You could do a lot worse [scroll down to pg. 11]: https://www.geindustrial.com/catalog...rmonFiltrs.pdf

GM

[Basplin]

Also at the surplus store today I found some Sprague Clorinol PIO (with PCB) caps for my other set of speakers I have - very rare Design Acoustics D-12's. NINE 2.5" Peerless tweeters in these bad boys. I recapped them with 1% Dayton audio MPP when I got them 3.5 years ago, and always noticed that in certain frequencies, a select few tweeters would distort - mostly in high piano notes, vibes, things like that. I had just assumed it was voice coil rub from 40 years of the same position on these tweeter magnets. Fast forward to this week - as I'm reading about how capacitors can give a "glaring" sound, I started to wonder if it was the caps I used...

I installed those PIO caps tonight - one speaker at a time so I could A/B between the Dayton and Sprague - and WOW. I was floored. The difference is night and day. The Dayton's don't hold a candle to the clarity and the strength of sound of the Spragues. I wasn't expecting this much of a difference, but it was huge. The sound was so much less grainular too. Passages of high complexity - from Beethoven Piano Sonatas to Modern Jazz Quartet - were effortlessly conveyed with the PIO. The highs were a muddled mess with the Daytons. It was something that hadn't really bothered me before, but I could hear it now. AND, there was no distortion with the Spragues in places I had gotten it before.

I will say that I've got pretty good ears. I'm a professional orchestral musician and my job is literally all about dissecting the small, minute, differences in sound. This isn't to say I'm not biased like anybody else, because I'm sure I am in some way, but to my ears, there was quite a noticeable different with these caps on these speakers. It's nice to finally know what everyone is talking about with these PIO caps, and with only one point of reference so far, I have to agree!

[BillWojo]

Basplin, haven't you heard? PIO are out! Must have $400/cap parts in your crossover or they are no good. Or was it $200/cap? Who cares!
Glad to hear that they worked out so well for you. You are uniquely qualified as a musician. Unfortunately, my hearing is not as acute as yours after working years in industrial shops and racing motorcycles.
It's nice to see that old school vintage caps can perform so well and can be purchased at non audiophile prices.

BillWojo

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry if my writing insults you Jeffrey but it was never my forte. I did excel in math and the sciences though, subjects that you must have slept through. I bet you excelled in your writing class, was your specialty about fantasy's? You do it so well.

BillWojo

[Basplin]

Basplin, haven't you heard? PIO are out! Must have $400/cap parts in your crossover or they are no good. Or was it $200/cap? Who cares!
Glad to hear that they worked out so well for you. You are uniquely qualified as a musician. Unfortunately, my hearing is not as acute as yours after working years in industrial shops and racing motorcycles.
It's nice to see that old school vintage caps can perform so well and can be purchased at non audiophile prices.

BillWojo

Ugh, I guess I should just throw it all away then! LOL.

I know the day will come when my ears are not able to enjoy these things as I do now...which is why it's important for me to just enjoy the music and not lose sight of what all this is really all about. That being said, it does make me really happy that I don't have to spend an arm and leg and a kidney to get something that helps reproduce all this wonderful music so beautifully!

[RonSSS]

Well Bill, I'm a drag racer........40years now.
I was in the electronics industry (Eng Tech spectrum Analyzers) now I run a chassis dyno.

What I find is that I just need to turn the volume up and the levels come into focus.
I have to use those Fletcher Munson curves.

I always joke that I need horns, My ears are a bit worn out.
And 3 watts just won't do it for me.

I scavenged some PIO caps from some AC line amps I had from the 50's.
So I have 2 ea 2uf, 3uf and 10uf. Hardly enough to build a crossover.

On the exactness of the values. I have been playing with Jeff's phase correct crossover schematics.
Jeff was kind enough to give me the data for the Ferrite 604-168X speakers he measured.
I downloaded Xsim from DIY audio.
You can play with the values and watch the effects of the freq response and phase as you make changes.
So for instance, making a 7uf a 6.8uf has quite a small effect.

I poked around on parts express looking at boutique caps. Gads. Pretty easy to spend a grand on caps for two Xovers that you might not like!
I spent $400 on my duplexes, and $1100 on my M19's. Quite some time ago I might add.

I don't know if we have much for surplus stores here in Portland. Even if we did, there are enough audio scroungers here, I doubt much good to find.
Although I probably know the guys who have all the good shit.

Ron

[mah]

OT: Jeff, how does disagreeing with a technical point you make become a personal attack? Crikey!

[Elitopus1]

I took my Camaro and my motorcycle to the dyno when I was younger. Man I wish I could live at that place and see all the cool cars that go through there. Talk about needing hearing protection.


Ok back on topic:
I need to find some older oil caps. I bet they have a really good tone

[GM]

Also at the surplus store today I found some Sprague Clorinol PIO (with PCB) caps......

Lucky so n' so! All these types of old caps regardless of brand are same-same as the Bell/WE/AT-T caps with mil-spec versions ditto except have been tested, documented as such, so if still good, about as close as one can get to the OEM 'tone', if one has the period correct driver, signal chain of course since they were 'voiced' as a system.

Since the vast majority of us don't though, I have a hard time getting 'teary eyed' about whether I have these or more modern non-pcb damped/cooled caps, just that they be this basic type used with vintage or [modern] similar design drivers, horns if one wants a [somewhat] 'vintage' sound or just prefer the more 'laid back'/'smoother' tone that doesn't tend to overly excite my nearly lifelong tinnitus.

GM

[Basplin]

Lucky so n' so! All these types of old caps regardless of brand are same-same as the Bell/WE/AT-T caps with mil-spec versions ditto except have been tested, documented as such, so if still good, about as close as one can get to the OEM 'tone', if one has the period correct driver, signal chain of course since they were 'voiced' as a system.

Since the vast majority of us don't though, I have a hard time getting 'teary eyed' about whether I have these or more modern non-pcb damped/cooled caps, just that they be this basic type used with vintage or [modern] similar design drivers, horns if one wants a [somewhat] 'vintage' sound or just prefer the more 'laid back'/'smoother' tone that doesn't tend to overly excite my nearly lifelong tinnitus.

GM

The D12's use 1970's Peerless cone tweeters, so I'm not sure if these are necessarily OEM tone. However, I believe the original caps were PIO (black caps with red ends). Regardless, they sound phenomenal. They really tame those "hot" tweeters and smooth them out very nicely.

Yeah, I freaked when I saw em. The only Clorinols they had, and just happened to be in the exact values I was looking for....

That being said, I couldn't find any (or totally missed) PCB ones for the 5 and 7uf, just the GE Dielektrols. I have heard these are still great though. What's the difference in sound between the non-PCB and PCB ones anyways? I'm assuming all non-PCB's are the hazy film in oil, and not PIO?

[GM]

If I ever knew what HAZY stood for, I've long since forgotten. As for tonal differences, 'we' [HAM radio, local Altec related folks] were of the opinion that if you didn't know there was a difference, one didn't hear a difference, so all I'll commit to is that in 'our' UL short circuit testing the [nasty smelling] vegetable oil used at the time [still do?] performed near enough the same to just add it to the original's certifications.

Over time though, any aging effects will require one to compare what they have to determine what sounds best to them in their app.

Note that as time wore on, [power factor, etc.] capacitor production was reduced to either a single plant or three over different continents making the cans, another the 'internals' and a third did the assembly regardless of brand IIRC, but can't remember if this happened in the '80s or early '90s or what the status quo became after I retired in '94, but personally just going to buy new and not going to bother trying to keep same brand, etc., as I believe they all probably come from the same plant[s] in China/wherever nowadays.

Maybe I will try others if I switch to SETs for the horns at some later date, but woofers will stay SS to retain their 'snap', so no 'conflicts of interest' sound wise for me.

GM