Mod thoughts, regarding stock ALTEC Model 19 crossovers.

[kwingylee]

Have you spent some time listening to the M19's Jeff? I'm sure they could use some new caps. Maybe you could tweak them to your liking. I don't think a recap and some bypass caps would hurt their value.

Since you are missing an 802G, you could throw your pair of 802D in there instead. For testing purposes of course

Some speakers have no right sounding as good as they do. Like was mentioned above, these are "last speakers" for some people.

Also did you figure out which woofers you have?

If you were going to sell the M19s, what would you be asking for?

[Elitopus1]

If you were going to sell the M19s, what would you be asking for?

Wait, is this a trick question?

M19's aren't worth much in my area. There was a pair that sat on CL for 6 weeks before they sold. They were only asking 600$. Yes I did go look at them. Good original condition with 416B and 802G.
I wouldn't feel right buying them just to part them out. I'll bet someone else did that eventually.
I prefer the gray Altecs. Something I can repaint when it gets dinged and scratched.

[LowOhms]

Have you spent some time listening to the M19's Jeff? I'm sure they could use some new caps. Maybe you could tweak them to your liking. I don't think a recap and some bypass caps would hurt their value.

Since you are missing an 802G, you could throw your pair of 802D in there instead. For testing purposes of course

Some speakers have no right sounding as good as they do. Like was mentioned above, these are "last speakers" for some people.

Also did you figure out which woofers you have?

Hello,

It is presently impossible for me to set up the Model 19s - as I would want to listen to them. I will not be able to do a comparison.

( I would want to re-do the M-19 crossover, re-do the internal wiring extensively, and mass load the enclosure with at least 300 pounds per side. ) That just isn't going to happen.

For the next three months, all my audio effort goes to two current "priority" projects

(a) finishing a DIY passive system attenuator and

(b) finishing the redesign / build of two ( 2) DIY Direct Coupled JJ 2A3-40 SET monaural amplifiers.


I am upgrading .....from my December 2016's "dual mono on a single chassis" amp build, to :

two (2) separate mono amps, on two (2) chassis, to obtain a more optimized lay-out, that only true mono amps will allow.

LOL, it only took one month, December 2016, for me to became " spoiled - ruined for life " - about ever-again using stereo ( shared L-R power supply ) amplifiers on my ALTECS .

This occurred, after living with / and first hearing the new DIY "dual mono on a single chassis" 2A3 amps - only for that ONE month. Now, after HEARING that, my amplifier priority has become..... I want to hear my speakers slightly improved over that, with TRUE separate monaural amplifiers. Two.

'Am re-designing the two custom power transformers, tonight and tomorrow. Cool project.

Regarding identifying M19s woofers, 'will take you say-so, on what they are, since you know much more than me, of such things. Thanks.

Regards to all, have fun, I am.

Low Ohms.....Jeff .

[BillWojo]

Wow, I guess you don't trust the Altec engineers at all if you need to do that whole list of stuff to them just for a listen.
Almost any top ten speaker list has Model 19's on the list, for a damn good reason. Altec went all out to design these for high fidelity, not sound reinforcement.
To have them and not do everything that you can to give them a fair trial is nuts. If they sound good with old caps and nothing done to them, well you can take it from there. At least give them a fair try.

BillWojo

[LowOhms]

Wow, I guess you don't trust the Altec engineers at all if you need to do that whole list of stuff to them just for a listen.
Almost any top ten speaker list has Model 19's on the list, for a damn good reason. Altec went all out to design these for high fidelity, not sound reinforcement.
To have them and not do everything that you can to give them a fair trial is nuts. If they sound good with old caps and nothing done to them, well you can take it from there. At least give them a fair try.

BillWojo

Bill,

I object to "nuts" ...was unnecessary, and a poor choice of a word on your part IMHO.

READ the post I did before yours. I have no amps, and no attenuator. HOW can I critically evaluate speakers, without amps of reference quality???

The M19s are not my priority, going to ( making ) monaural 2A3 DC amps, amps with ZERO negative feedback for listening seriously, is the priority !!

Each of those new monaural amps will use three of those 1,500 Ampere ( peak instantaneous ) capacitors, in key spots. First time...its ever being done in audio !! ' Way cool.

Speaker-wise, can a properly designed bass reflex woofer, (with a horn loaded driver above it), out-perform a partial horn loaded woofer, (with a horn loaded driver above it) ?? It can't, IMHO. ( M19s vs A7-800s).

Have fun, I sure am!!

Jeff ......Low Ohms

[bowtie427ss]

Speaker-wise, can a properly designed bass reflex woofer, (with a horn loaded driver above it), out-perform a partial horn loaded woofer, (with a horn loaded driver above it) ?? It can't, IMHO.

Since the question was rhetorical i'll spare you the correct answer.

I understand that you cannot do a comparison, and that Nineteens are not your priority to the extent that you don't even care to fully investigate the correct identity of the components you have. This makes your opinions concerning their performance subjective at best. If Nineteens don't interest you, then why even mention them?

You can do better, please demonstrate.

[LowOhms]

Since the question was rhetorical i'll spare you the correct answer.

I understand that you cannot do a comparison, and that Nineteens are not your priority to the extent that you don't even care to fully investigate the correct identity of the components you have. This makes your opinions concerning their performance subjective at best. If Nineteens don't interest you, then why even mention them?

You can do better, please demonstrate.

HI,

OK.

I mentioned M19s, because upon my direct inspection, as my thread is entitled, I was shocked at how the stock wiring and crossover design was executed by ALTEC.

There is TONS of room for improvement, in both areas, so that the speaker performs better.

I very well recall what Mr. Fulton was doing, in that same time period and even earlier, with crossovers. This thread I entitled " Mod Thoughts - M19 crossovers ".

I certainly have disassembled the M19s to identify the components. It was - is - the very first thing I did.

Elitopus, privately, has KINDLY helped me identify the woofers, they are ALTEC but seemingly not stock. Whoever buys them, will see the units from the inside out, as it is pictured plainly in my Kansas City Craigslist ad, and they can inherit the speaker project.

ALTEC Model 19 Speaker Pair

I intend to systematically drop the price, starting tomorrow and sell them locally. The ugly A7-800s stay.

In my two bedroom apartment , I have VOTTs in my living room. In my kitchen, disassembled Valencias being rebuilt fully, and now these disassembled 19s, taking almost ALL my kitchen's floor space !!

Need to do the 2A3 amps !! Amplifiers, in my experience and opinion, not speakers, are the true weak link.

Jeff Medwin... Low Ohms

[bowtie427ss]

In all sincerity, i would like to see you someday visit Nineteens with the same vigor and intent with which you have explored the small format VOT system. I think you bring new, unique, and useful insight to the table, and could likely help take the Nineteen system to a level that has not yet been explored. I also understand that you have your hands full and such a journey with Nineteens isn't possible at this time.

A few points that should be considered about the model Nineteen system and it's proper components:

The 416-8B woofer, and 802-8G compression driver were the latest designs from Altec at the time. Both used newly designed magnetic circuits, and the compression driver used a newly applied phase plug as well.

Those are the components that the Nineteen system was engineered around, and for any real world comparisons, or improvements they are the components that should be used as they differ somewhat parametrically from other variants. The 416-8B, while not so well suited to horn driver duty as the 515 series, is a wonderful woofer by it's own merits, and can yield excellent results in other enclosures as well.

It should also be noted that the Nineteen enclosure is not a simple bass reflex box in that it was Altec's first use(to my knowledge) of a bass reflex system incorporating an additional resonant chamber/volume separated from the main chamber by a "throat".

[Earl K]

Given any unfamiliarity with everything Altec, I can understand some confusion ( after seeing these pics ) over what woofers these actually are.

They are not the 416-8Z version of the 416-8B that most of us attribute to that ( Alnico ) number.

I'd state them as generic 416-8C ( ferrite ) woofers with the wrong dust-caps ( but with desirable cones ).

[Elitopus1]

I think the magnets look like 421 magnets. I haven't seen a 416C with the textured magnets like that. I did have a pair of 421 that had them though. Here is a side shot
Attachment 3492

I could be completely wrong of course.

Replacement cones with the 21184 stamp are still available now on ebay. Or maybe those were 416 orginally and someone changed some parts. From what I understand any of the 3" VC Altec parts can be swapped. Frames, magnets, and cones.

Also notice the rear vent with the screen. The 421 would have this