Any recommendations internal speaker wire?

[LowOhms]

Jeff it would help a great deal if you quit presenting your opinions as facts. I understand what you say, and choose not to believe you.
You are your own worst enemy because of how you word and present things. You accepting that others don't take what you say as fact is as important as others tolerating you.

Beg to disagree.

My comments come from a lifetime of direct experience with the subject matter. Been listening to ALTECS since late 1944, a 604 duplex then, ....my Dad's.

People can discern for themselves, when I post, what is an opinion, and if it is a fact or not. That is not the important part. And by the way, my opinions, based on my direct experiences, they are fact....to me !!

What is of importance is being able to mention new things, and allowing people on their own, to accept or reject what I, or anyone else on this Forum, writes. Its called sharing, in this case, information pertaining to audio, our mutual hobby.

Old Guy, you can choose not to believe me. You can listen to audio, just as you do, through Belden 9497 twisted pairs of 16 AWG wire, copper stranded tin wire, as you have already posted. ( page 6, Post 55 ). That is fine with me!! We all sow what we reap. If you are happy, satisfied, well, that is good for you.

Some audio people are just like ME, always interested and looking for the maximum possible performance, and doing so on a budget basis. Additionally, MOST of us are not wealthy. My suggestion of m22759/11 is a fine cost-effective alternative, to the " conventional wisdom " that gets spewed about on line.

Me, taking the time and care, to specifically give suggestions on how to employ such wire, is a sharing and GOOD thing to do. People have choice now.

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So far, it seems as if three people on this Forum have reported using / trying-out my wiring suggestions, with likely only one executing it as I described. We are batting .66 percent results-wise, on it being an improvement. The one user that heard no difference, has GENTLY had me critique what he needs to try next, to at least follow my installation suggestions.

As time goes by, hopefully more will try out these suggestions, and report up here, and enjoy audio playback more-so in their homes. I am not in the wire business, I post to share with others a way I feel is THE best compromise overall, and offer a specific choice they can freely make.

I am very sure, they will not find - as of mid-2017 - a better cost-versus-performance alternative than this Mil Spec wire, that will also stand high-performance scrutiny.

Have great July 4th old Guy !!


Jeff Medwin

[BillWojo]

" Yes I get tired of Jeff claiming to be a genius regurgitating the work of another genius."

Thank you Old Guy, that about sums up my feelings and it irks me to no end that he will not admit that these are only his opinions and states them as factual.

There are new members coming aboard all the time and many more who read this board but never join or comment. "Jeffs Facts" as I shall call them now are most times just opinions that a lot of us disagree on yet someone with little back ground in electronics or audio may be mislead into thinking that these are in fact real "facts". How is a newcomer going to build a solid foundation in the understanding of his audio system if his initial foundation is made of quick sand.

There are other audio forums that welcome voodoo magic and "Jeffs Facts" would more than likely be welcome there. He has been thrown off of the DIYforum already and wouldn't last 5 minutes at the EEVBlog forum.

I hope that Jeff can take your advise and change his posting manners. I don't like being adversarial but I will not let obvious BS stand as posted without challenging it.

BillWojo

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By the way Jeff, I do thank you for the recommendation on the mil-spec wire. Next time I do a project I will be buying some.

[Old Guy]

Beg to disagree.


Old Guy, you can choose not to believe me. You can listen to audio, just as you do, through Belden 9497 twisted pairs of 16 AWG wire, copper stranded tin wire, as you have already posted. ( page 6, Post 55 ). That is fine with me!! We all sow what we reap. If you are happy, satisfied, well, that is good for you.

Some audio people are just like ME, always interested and looking for the maximum possible performance, and doing so on a budget basis.




Jeff Medwin

No, some people like you are so egotistical they can't conceive of themselves being wrong. And they keep repeating their opinion as fact, when it it absolutely is not, and never will be no matter how many times repeated.
You've presented your opinion over and over again... Time for you to shut up and move on.

We all seek to better our systems in our own ways. There is exactly one poster on this forum who is such an a** that he considers his opinion so much better than everyone else.

You've talked about $20,000 amps here, which doesn't sound like a budget basis, and you repeat the claims of the builders. Guess what, Jeff. Those builders have an agenda- selling twenty thousand dollar amps.

You just stated my level of work is below yours. That is what is wrong with you. I've been involved in audio for 50 years, both live and studio. I built my first amplifier 54 years ago.

Sorry old chap, if one us is a piker, it is you.

[GM]

To twist, or not to twist ??

It may be " centuries proven " as you suggest, but it is not always the best way to execute it, if one simply listens.

I have recently been able to listen to wires, twisted and untwisted, and ....in certain applications, ....untwisted sounds better to me .

For amp to driver runs, I have recently A-Bed this, and on my system, polarities not touching clearly sounds better. In fact, ANYONE would plainly hear this on MY system.

Although the decades old EE books denote what AWG works for so many feet, and I appreciate you showing this to us all..... I suggest that may be invalid ...not adequate.

I would hope this Forum is " big" enough to allow some diversity of thought.

What I HEAR, always trumps any decades-old written theory. Reality trumps theory.

Greets!

Personal opinion [hearsay] is completely irrelevant to what is proven over time to be technically best [overall] WRT performance of the intended app, so are neither invalid nor inadequate. One need only look at all things electrical in our lives for much more than ample proof of its underlying physics presented in those 'old EE books'.

It's also well proven that we all hear the same, yet not so much, so a universal baseline reference of physically proven theories is required to even begin determining what others opinions are worth and to what degree.

I've no doubt you may hear some difference due to various tweaks, differing design methodologies, though one thing's for sure is that your amp, system will measure more, higher, various distortions than when designed/built to well proven theory if just 'anyone' can hear them simply because we perceive sound primarily by its harmonic structure and since we like 'rich' tasting foods, drinks, feeling clothes, seeing brilliant colors, it seems a foregone conclusion that we want our sound 'rich' to a greater or lesser extent also, which in sound reproduction is technically composed of various distortions to the signal and well proven enough to not be open for debate or be dismissed out of hand as you're wont to do seemingly every chance you get.

Your still being able to post here is proof enough that this, and any other forum I post on [and only will post on], is more than 'big' enough to not just allow some diversity, but encourage it; just only that when questioning, contesting, or outright damning, the validity of well proven science or others personal experience[s] that they must come with a preponderance of physical, measurable proof, not hearsay, no matter how high a personal opinion one has for theirs or others experience[s].

What one likes, hears never trumps well proven theory, just merely conveys to others what sounds 'right' to them in their app, so will likely never be exactly like anyone else's, hence anecdotal for consideration at best as to whether one wants to experiment, which are relatively few at the DIY SOTA level and even then most effort/budget is spent on improving the speakers, the well proven weakest link by a wide margin since the beginning of sound system reproduction and will continue to be it for the foreseeable future except possibly by using mass quantities of DSP only currently available with a supercomputer AFAIK and even then not sure if it could ever correct it enough to match an entry level HIFI amp much less best, a current SOTA amp.

The reality of the underlying physics only trumps theory when the requisite measurements proves otherwise, then the theory is modified to suit reality, not personal opinions, hearsay.

GM

[LowOhms]

Lovely post GM !!

But please keep in mind, I preceeded my comments on twisting with these words " in CERTAIN applications ". The word "certain", I underlined.

I went on to discuss UN twisted as being beneficial the end-to-end High Voltage windings of a power transformer, used for tube amps, and amp-to-driver wiring.

I also cited two other manufacturers, who had similarly noticed this, when A-Bing.

My question I posed directly to you, as I recall, is " If un-twisted sounds better, in a specific application YOU have listened to, and by a clear and wide margin, HOW would YOU build the circuit in those spots.?"

I have not negated the EE reasoning for twisting wires at all. Wires are twisted in MANY places in my builds, but not automatically for all places, if it sounds worse to me, or others who may hear it in my system.

How would YOU proceed, if you had to live with that choice in certain applications??

Have fun. cool subject. Appreciated your post, and your presence. Thanks.


Jeff Medwin

[rogerh113]

One of my favourite Monty Python sketches is where the patron in the restaurant mentions a speck of dirt on a fork. The waiter (Cleese) goes absolutely wild, apologizes profusely, and finally commits hari kiri with the 'dirty'' fork. The punch line is when the patron says something like 'lucky I didn't tell him about the dirty knife'...

Perhaps things are a bit out of control. I was hoping for suggestions about my wiring concept, not open warfare....

regards -- Roger

[GM]

Perhaps things are a bit out of control. I was hoping for suggestions about my wiring concept, not open warfare....

Just another day on the boards.......... Anyway, some good info got posted, but to answer your Q; yes, you can size wire by distance between components whether they're XO parts on a board or amp, speakers, etc..

Back when I started designing electrical distribution gear, we often had to provide [multiple] huge, hard wired solenoid relay panels to turn off/on/sequence up to hundreds of motors in a plant or in just one section of it if automotive or similar, so the amount of high quality stranded wire required demanded that we size wire based on load, not what the entire panel [or section of] load was, so while it might start out at 8 ga it could be 24 ga at the return point.

I don't recall checking how much we typically used on those, but one year saw an end-of-year Southwire invoice for 10 mil ft. of 14 ga [our standard control wiring] and we were a relatively tiny plant by assembly plant standards.

GM

[rogerh113]

Invest a few minutes - perhaps it helps put the relative importance of things into perspective.....

Monty Python- Dirty Fork - YouTube

regards -- Roger

[LowOhms]

One of my favourite Monty Python sketches is where the patron in the restaurant mentions a speck of dirt on a fork. The waiter (Cleese) goes absolutely wild, apologizes profusely, and finally commits hari kiri with the 'dirty'' fork. The punch line is when the patron says something like 'lucky I didn't tell him about the dirty knife'...

Perhaps things are a bit out of control. I was hoping for suggestions about my wiring concept, not open warfare....

regards -- Roger

Hi Roger,

Well , I gave you very speciific and detailed instructions on internal wire in this thread, and it was my very best information, and precisely what I do for myself. i didn't hold back.

I am having a HUGE task of position optimizing my 825 enclosures, in the corners of my listening room ( 13 by 18 by 9 feet ), over the next two days. Each 825 has about 400 pounds of patio concrete stepping stones on top, 16 pounds each, and I gotta take em ALL on and off, for each distance change, to position each 825 enclosure by ear, incrementally, in the room.

They are coupling to the rear wall, and maybe the side walls, too much, too close......... as it stands / sounds to me today. I knew "this day", ( in the A7 set up ), would come.

Its now. Ugh !!


Jeff

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Hi Old Guy,

So, you built something in 1963. In 1961 I helped my DAD build a Dyna Kit PAS-2 and ST-70, but it wasn't until 1982, when I got to design and build my first DHT amp, P-P-P 6B4Gs, on SIX chassis, 400 pounds.

YOU STATED ABOVE :

" You've talked about $20,000 amps here, which doesn't sound like a budget basis, and you repeat the claims of the builders. Guess what, Jeff. Those builders have an agenda- selling twenty thousand dollar amps."


YES, the 20K amps ARE the best out there, in more than one person's opinion. We should be able to single them out up here, without ruffling feathers, for people to KNOW OF, and if you have the money, they are an excellent long-term solution.

What you FAILED to acknowledge is that I clearly suggested to ALL.....the Jelasi and Marzio amp building article, gave the URL. I also offered improvements, and offered to help ANY interested DIYer gratis, to build something for himself.

It would just be the cost of parts, to own and use ( IMHO, IME ) a world-class sounding amplifier on ALTECS.

So, there are two sides to this coin, Old Guy.

Regards,


Jeff

[GM]

Link doesn't work, so assume this one [need to use the 'insert video' feature]:



GM