Any recommendations internal speaker wire?

[mah]

'.... I saw photos of your crossover on AudioKharma(sic).'....(disparaging comments follow)

Darn, I just returned to AK to get relief from the Medwin verbal sprays.

Good thing is they have clear participation rules.

[BillWojo]

Wow, Jeff you completely amaze me over and over with your vast knowledge of audio engineering. Now you as an amateur DIY amp builder can build amplifiers that can put McIntosh Lab tube amps to shame.
Please post all the specs and graphs for your latest creation such as FR and THD. No, I don't want to hear you babble about how great it sounds, just show us the specs. A great amp will add no coloration or do anything to modify the input signal, a Mac amp is about the best there is for reproducing a signal cleanly.
Since you seem to be an audio engineer, be it a backyard DIYer, please explain to all of us the theory behind Fulton wire lengths, many of us, or I'd venture a guess here, all of us are still trying to figure that out.
In short, put some theory and science behind your bizarre claims.

BillWojo

[LowOhms]

Wow, Jeff you completely amaze me over and over with your vast knowledge of audio engineering. Now you as an amateur DIY amp builder can build amplifiers that can put McIntosh Lab tube amps to shame.

Yes, that is pretty easy to do. I do that now, even with my less-than-perfect DIY implementations. My newest TYPE 46 SE 1.3 Watt amp, will KILL any Mac tube amp, on my own ALTECs, easily .



Let me pose a question to readers....What do you think will preserve the audio signal best. two voltage-optimized and linear triode stages, direct coupled, with NO negative feedback ( a Loftin White type design ) or a Mc Intosh 40 ?

Before you answer, just LOOK at the MC 40 schematic ( C1, C6 and C7, and lastly C8 and C9 ). It uses FIVE tube stages, and three SERIES coupling capacitors ( a capacitor IS the least desirable way possible to couple two stages ) all in series with the audio signal, input-to-output.

Does anyone reading this remotely think three coupling caps, in series, and FIVE active tube stages, will sound better than two tube stages and two inches of high quality Mil Spec wire carrying the audio signal. ?? It gets QUIET, when I ask that question.


Please post all the specs and graphs for your latest creation such as FR and THD.


"Specs" like that, FR and THD, are typically gotten in Push Pull with Negative Feedback, and such specs means next-to-nothing as to how an amp plays back music. Remove the anti-music NFB loops from the typical Push Pull amp, and then tell me about its specs!! Haven't you learned that yet ??? We don't LISTEN to specs. When gotten with ( always-out-of-time ) NFB, such specs mean ...... next to nothing !!

I only want to hear no-feedback loop audio playback, for myself, as the power amp.

No, I don't want to hear you babble about how great it sounds, just show us the specs.

A great amp will add no coloration or do anything to modify the input signal, a Mac amp is about the best there is for reproducing a signal cleanly.


Boy, are you outta touch with reality. LOL. You need to get out and LISTEN to things, go to a show, somehow ......educate yourself.

Since you seem to be an audio engineer, be it a backyard DIYer, please explain to all of us the theory behind Fulton wire lengths, many of us, or I'd venture a guess here, all of us are still trying to figure that out.


I am no engineer, thank goodness, but optimizing wire lengths came out of a audio engineering consultancy RWF did at a local Minnesota University, where they were testing Baboons with very high frequency signals.


In short, put some theory and science behind your bizarre claims.


I think its only bizarre to you, because, you don't know, quite yet, whats important, and what doesn't count. Maybe in 20 more years you will learn, or........ maybe never. It happens. We evolve in our understanding.

A McIntosh MC 40 Push Pull tube amp !!

Push - Pull has to invert the signal 180 degress, and then re-combine it, keeping it intact......... ( " All the King's horses, and all the King's men, could NEVER put poor old Humptey together again "), FIVE tube stages, THREE coupling caps, an E.E.s delight, .....come on !!

I am glad you are open to learning new things in audio, advancing your horizons, its so very commendable, and encouraging !!

BillWojo

SEE ABOVE, you will know my responses.......

[streetwise23]

Bill come on Jeff said it himself he doesn't care about theoretical and scientific papers. Let his golden pitch perfect ears tell you whats right and whats wrong. I bet his VOTTs are tuned flat from 10hz-24khz all by ear!

[kipduff]

Apologies to Kipduff whose thread has been waylaid.

I'm fine! All very interesting....

Been away from the thread- have done 70% of the woodwork- and doing day job. Next Wed Thurs, maybe finish...

- - - Updated - - -

I will only gently enter this thread long enough to suggest that audio explorers might want to try small gauge magnet wire as speaker cable. I run 15' lengths of drill twisted #26 gauge and have for years. This is principally for high sensitivity transducers. Lansing and Hilliard recommended the matching of input and output impedances in 1945 when they introduced the Voice of the Theatre systems. Their crossover impedance was 12 ohms; It is hard to imagine the power amplifier that would have had such a high output impedance. Anyway, injecting another ohm or two in the speaker wire seems to do no harm and might actually do some good. The clarity and immediacy of the sound is hard to beat. I used to suggest online that with careful shopping the intrepid audiophile might keep his speaker cable costs under $5 per mile!

Steve:

I have seen this approach mentioned in several locations I think, and I'm glad you chimed in here. Had some questions:

1) though I'm leaning for smaller gauge wiring in this application (18 or 16ga), 26AWG seems too small for the amperage.
2) The insulation on this wire seems too thin. Twisted pairs won't rub thru insulation?

Not challenging you- I've just been real curious about the specifics and concept.......

- - - Updated - - -

Hi Kip,

Here is what I find works best, crossover to drivers - and especially with lower powered tube amps:

From the Crossover to the high frequency compression drivers, use a 57 1/8th inch run of M22759/11 16 , ( 16 AWG, so you don't lose the highs ) one run for each polarity, do not twist the two wires.

For the crossover to the Woofer, use TWO runs of 12 AWG for EACH polarity. That would be m22759/11 12 and you can lightly twist the two wires in each polarity, but NOT the two polarities together. Again, use 57 1/8th inch length intervals.

I also find the ALTECs sound best when the press to fit connectors, stock on the drivers, are bypassed completely ( ie - not used ). I solder the 57 1/8th inch long 16 AWG m22759/11 16 directly to the tabs on the diaphragm ( did this just last night to a pair of 802Ds) . Place a clean rag OVER the diaphragm when soldering, to avoid splatters onto the diaphragm. I prefer Wonder Solder. In and out QUICK with a HOT gun.

On the woofer, I also prefer to bypass the crummy press-to-fit connectors, temporarily placing a rag over the backside of the cone when soldering, and solder the two 12 AWG Mil Spec wires DIRECTLY to the inner ALTEC stock terminal, that holds the lead-in wire to the voice coil. Loop each double 12 woofer wire, off the terminals and Double Tie Wrap each double 12 AWG run to the ALTEC woofer 's frame, to avoid TUG damage. Double 12 to each polarity equals about 9 AWG effective.

To my ears, under hard drive, direct soldering and the wiring, precisely as described, sounds nicer - more dynamic, is lower in distortion, than using a stock NON soldered press to-fit-connections and crummy wire. Really, IMHO, no comparison between the two methods, if you seek ultimate ALTEC performance.

Oh, from amp to speaker, I use two 57 1/8th inch lengths ( 114 1/4 inch runs ) of TRIPLE m22759/11 12 . I prefer to keep the two speaker wire polarities separate, no light twisting, they do not even touch each other. If you have a long distance between amp and speakers, the low powered tube amp will under-perform with long speaker wires. In that case, use a long interconnect, and short speaker wire ( eg: a single 57 1/8th inch run - amp to speaker , DOUBLE 12 AWG ).... and have the amps placed right near the speaker.

For anyone who posts that what I propose ( and do !! ) is " unnecessary ", I can GUARANTEE you Kip, they haven't tried it nor heard it, nor will they have the mindset to follow this precisely as was described. I LOVE this wiring, biggest ( wiring ) performance bang for the buck !! No deviations. Wonder Solder. If you execute this, as described, PLEASE share with us all your listening experience and impressions. Have fun, I do.


Low Ohms..... Jeff Medwin

( 825s, 515Bs, 802Ds 400 pounds of mass loading per enclosure, DIY crossover, Type 46 or JJ 2A3-40 DIY Direct-Coupled single-ended tube amps )

PS: For people who may be unaware, 57 1/8 th inches, and multiples and divisors thereof, is a length developed by Audio Engineer Robert W. Fulton, in the 1970s, which he applied to all his wiring.

Fulton Musical Industries - Biography

I really appreciate the detail and specifics of your response. But I'm not ready to commit to this approach because 1) my layperson's instinct is pushing me away from large gauges of wire- especially where the runs could be as low as 3" between posts and X-over- and 12" between X-over and drivers. 2) I wanna see and hear it first and get a better idea of what it's all about. 3) This is a big committment in work and $.

Thinking seriously about going to the show in Denver- also want to see and hear more Altec specific setups. Last time I heard 604's was in the mid seventy's- had some 604E's I bought at Costa Mesa swap meet for $150. Got em re-conned and put them in a smaller ported box based on design I got direct from Altec (then in Anaheim). Had a crappy Proneer receiver and I didn't make the boxes well at all- 3/4" particle board. Really did thumpy Bob Marley bass real good though- thumpy bass was real big in the 70's! Don't know what happened to them! My taste and HiFi system have evolved considerably.....

[LowOhms]

Hi Kipduff,

I have heard other ALTEC systems. Here is " my " opinion. Its almost impossible to beat the drivers, cost-versus-performance, of ALTEC or GPA.

However, very few ALTEC owners ever hear the full potential. There are always serious bottlenecks, to my ears, typically its the amplification, wiring, and overall implementation, versus whats really possible. Straighten that out, and she FLIES !!

A person just needs to hear it RIGHT, only one time, and they easily understand.... will never forget.

ON wire, shorter lengths, I think I mentioned multiples and divisors, ....somewhere in my posting. Divisors would be.... 28 1/2 inches, 14 1/4 , and 7 1/8ths inches as an example.

Yes, October 6, 7 and 8th at Denver, RMAF. You should come, from what you posted, it will be GOOD experience for you to take in. There will be well over 200 Demo rooms.

My friend Dennis will be running GPA 604s in excellent MLTL enclosures, with the basic wiring I just detailed for Forum readers. His latest 2017 amps and phono are cool to hear !! . Many other rooms will be good.

Hopefully, this year MBL from Germany will be there. They have a $500K electrostatic / hybrid speaker and a lovely sounding solid state amp system, WAY outta my price range, ,that is ALWAYS a pleasure to experience directly. First class.

Jeff

[RonSSS]

I used the 12gA wire Jeff recommended inside my 19's for the woofers only.
For the horns I used some smaller gauge silver plated Teflon jacketed Tektronix CRT HV wire I scored a reel of when I worked there. It's small gauge so I "drill twisted" (Gee, I thought I invented that....) three strands per lead. Nice and flexible and easy to insert into the push connectors on the 902's.

For the outside the box speaker wires I used his 12gA again drill twisted two wires per lead. Bought some cheap but decent gold plated spades soldered with some nice 2% silver solder. Also from Tek when the electronic industry went lead free.....so the solder was free!

Ok, so I previously had old Monster type cable from Home Depot that had begun to turn green inside from corrosion, so for me this was a need for new wires, so WTF.

I like the results very much.

FWIW, I have me designed and built PP300B interstage transformer coupled non feedback amps and they sound excellent. They don't measure very well. They kick ass.

[LowOhms]

I used the 12gA wire Jeff recommended inside my 19's for the woofers only.
For the horns I used some smaller gauge silver plated Teflon jacketed Tektronix CRT HV wire I scored a reel of when I worked there. It's small gauge so I "drill twisted" (Gee, I thought I invented that....) three strands per lead. Nice and flexible and easy to insert into the push connectors on the 902's.

For the outside the box speaker wires I used his 12gA again drill twisted two wires per lead. Bought some cheap but decent gold plated spades soldered with some nice 2% silver solder. Also from Tek when the electronic industry went lead free.....so the solder was free!

Ok, so I previously had old Monster type cable from Home Depot that had begun to turn green inside from corrosion, so for me this was a need for new wires, so WTF.

I like the results very much.

FWIW, I have me designed and built PP300B interstage transformer coupled non feedback amps and they sound excellent. They don't measure very well. They kick ass.

GOOD, glad to hear that report. Thanks SSS.

I use just ONE single 16 AWG m22759/11 16 for each polarity, in the tweeter section of the crossover, and for a 57 1/8th inch run to my 802D. I'm GUESSING, you do NOT want to use three strands twisted per polarity, to your tweeter, unless super small, too much wire, will lose highs, IF your amp plays highs, ( and P-P can, is wider-band than MOST SETs. )

It is VERY important for the polarities of the wires NOT TO TOUCH, as they run from amp to crossover. If they touch each other, in ONE instance, it is a sonic degrade. They capacitively couple to each other, it screws up the highs, which comes right DOWN ( resultants ) into the mids and upper bass, degrading that range. Also, it adversely effects dynamic contrasting....all highly audible to me, A-Bing it, this past week !!

I hope when you say " 12 AWG to the woofer ", its TWO runs for each polarity, not just one. Try eliminating the stock ALTEC push to fit connectors, and solder directly to the drivers ( safely !!! ) ....nicer under hard drive.

Please, if you can, send me a decent schematic with voltages of your 300B P-P amp, I can make just one or two very SIMPLE power supply only suggestions for you to TRY, not very expensive!!, and you will like them I bet !!




Jeff ..... Low Ohms

[GM]

Right, the conductors should be chosen for the desired BW, voltage drop over distance and why bi-wiring is a good plan due to the wide range variance between a woofer, tweeter.

Spacing opposing conductors causes both inductive and shunt capacitive inductance with increasing spacing, so is acting as a frequency shaping filter. You may like how it sounds and a tweak sometimes worth experimenting with [remember the 'trellis'/'railroad track' system to space up/spread out the speaker wire runs?], but's it's technically degrading the signal.

GM

[LowOhms]

Right, the conductors should be chosen for the desired BW, voltage drop over distance and why bi-wiring is a good plan due to the wide range variance between a woofer, tweeter.

Spacing opposing conductors causes both inductive and shunt capacitive inductance with increasing spacing, so is acting as a frequency shaping filter. You may like how it sounds and a tweak sometimes worth experimenting with [remember the 'trellis'/'railroad track' system to space up/spread out the speaker wire runs?], but's it's technically degrading the signal.

GM

Ohh YES, I like how it sounds VERY much.

It is hard for me to imagine it being " technically degrading" the signal, but then, thankfully , that doesn't guide my choices. Everything sounds so much better, more realistic. better mids, nicer upper bass, less distortion, and better dynamics.

After initially me separating wires, amp to crossover, I next eliminated 6 inches of wire touching, from the output transformer secondary - to speaker terminals. It, also, got noticeably better - in the same precise areas and ways I mentioned above.

I have a musician friend, ( with a copy of your MLTLs / GPA 604s ) , trying this out next in Saint Louis. 'Am curious to hear his report...

but honestly, I am SURE of what it does, and the need to do this GM, in MY system, as configured !! Also, my audio mentor in Montana does this wire polarity separation, S.O.P.


Jeff....Low Ohms