OT, ....New Capaciitor Type.............. for AUDIO Use....

[Old Guy]

As far as EEs and measurements go, the problem is that audio is too complex to be measured accurately with the tools we have on hand,.

Using ears only is even less productive. Human ears compensate over a range of more than a trillion to one, making them thousands an thousand of times less accurate than measurements.

Add to that, no two people hear exactly the same.

I've been at audio shows and heard speakers that sounded wretched but were lauded for their sound.

So I trust golden eared audiophools even less than you trust engineers.

BTW ALL of those Altec drivers you love were designed by engineers using measurement equipment. Not some. ALL.

So your flat assertions that you post are often way off base.

Saying measurement equipment is not necessary is as bad or worse than claiming measurements are the only thing that count. The difference being no one here claims measurements are the only thing that count.

[Todd W. White]

Using ears only is even less productive. Human ears compensate over a range of more than a trillion to one, making them thousands an thousand of times less accurate than measurements.

Add to that, no two people hear exactly the same.

I've been at audio shows and heard speakers that sounded wretched but were lauded for their sound.

So I trust golden eared audiophools even less than you trust engineers.

BTW ALL of those Altec drivers you love were designed by engineers using measurement equipment. Not some. ALL.

So your flat assertions that you post are often way off base.

Saying measurement equipment is not necessary is as bad or worse than claiming measurements are the only thing that count. The difference being no one here claims measurements are the only thing that count.

Well Put!

I used to spend hours with potential customers trying to help them understand exactly what you just said. Most never "got it", choosing, instead, to believe their ears. I even had a very famous acoustical consultant, when I demonstrated the "sthhhh" distortion that ALL big JBL drivers spit out when the letter "S" comes along, tell me, "But I LIKE that sound!"

That's when I told him he was prejudiced.

"I am NOT!"

"Yes, you ARE - you've been listening to BAD sound for SO long that you've convinced yourself that it's GOOD, and, therefore, when a loudspeaker comes along that reproduces the sound accurately and as close to the original as is humanly possible, (Read: ALTEC), you THINK it's BAD!"

Needless to say, he was not convinced. The FACTS of acoustical measurements measurements notwithstanding, he was CONVINCED that "sthhhh" SOUNDED better than "S", and would NOT allow ALTEC products to be used in the bidding of his project.

And, of course, we see this in all areas of life, not just with sound - for most people, their EXPERIENCE almost always takes preeminence over the FACTS....

[Old Guy]

Well Put!

I used to spend hours with potential customers trying to help them understand exactly what you just said. Most never "got it", choosing, instead, to believe their ears. I even had a very famous acoustical consultant, when I demonstrated the "sthhhh" distortion that ALL big JBL drivers spit out when the letter "S" comes along, tell me, "But I LIKE that sound!"

That's when I told him he was prejudiced.

"I am NOT!"

"Yes, you ARE - you've been listening to BAD sound for SO long that you've convinced yourself that it's GOOD, and, therefore, when a loudspeaker comes along that reproduces the sound accurately and as close to the original as is humanly possible, (Read: ALTEC), you THINK it's BAD!"

Needless to say, he was not convinced. The FACTS of acoustical measurements measurements notwithstanding, he was CONVINCED that "sthhhh" SOUNDED better than "S", and would NOT allow ALTEC products to be used in the bidding of his project.

And, of course, we see this in all areas of life, not just with sound - for most people, their EXPERIENCE almost always takes preeminence over the FACTS....

Yup.

It always amazes me when I hear a Bose install that has the classic overly compressed FM radio sound, and someone comments on how good it is. You will never see a setup like that in a recording studio, where the program material is generated. Some people like Bose, I'm OK with them liking it. Just not OK if told I should like it.

To those I offend with bluntness, I ask you to understand how it feels to spend decades acquiring knowledge only to be disrespected by a random audio experimenter who can't even explain his results. That's my view of those that claim they can hear something no one else can.

[LowOhms]

Well Put!

I used to spend hours with potential customers trying to help them understand exactly what you just said. Most never "got it", choosing, instead, to believe their ears. I even had a very famous acoustical consultant, when I demonstrated the "sthhhh" distortion that ALL big JBL drivers spit out when the letter "S" comes along, tell me, "But I LIKE that sound!"

That's when I told him he was prejudiced.

"I am NOT!"

"Yes, you ARE - you've been listening to BAD sound for SO long that you've convinced yourself that it's GOOD, and, therefore, when a loudspeaker comes along that reproduces the sound accurately and as close to the original as is humanly possible, (Read: ALTEC), you THINK it's BAD!"

Needless to say, he was not convinced. The FACTS of acoustical measurements measurements notwithstanding, he was CONVINCED that "sthhhh" SOUNDED better than "S", and would NOT allow ALTEC products to be used in the bidding of his project.

And, of course, we see this in all areas of life, not just with sound - for most people, their EXPERIENCE almost always takes preeminence over the FACTS....

Hi Todd,

How frustrating that must have been. I can identify with that !!

Lets not throw-out the baby with the bath water.

I would suggest there is a vast difference between you selling products to John Q. Public, and a really good audio designer with an EE background, listening critically to their own gear. I only know of a few such people, over many years, of the later ilk.

Low Ohms.....Jeff Medwin

[Todd W. White]

Hi Todd,

How frustrating that must have been. I can identify with that !!

I would suggest there is a vast difference between you selling products to John Q. Public, and a really good audio designer with an EE background, listening critically to their own gear. I only know of a few such people, over many years, of the later ilk.

Low Ohms.....Jeff Medwin

Jeff,

That guy WAS a "really good audio designer with an EE background listening critically"! That's my point! NO one, except my friend Carolyn Davis, not even Don Davis himself, has perfect hearing AND, even if they do, Carolyn is the ONLY one I've met, and I've met a bunch of them, that knows WHAT she is hearing. She knows what the room is doing, she knows what the speakers are doing, she knows what the room and the speakers are doing together - she knows! She is a walking, living, breathing TEF machine, and she has been since before we even had real time analyzers. She's also one of the kindest, sweetest, certifiably brilliant people you will ever know - much nicer to deal with than a TEF machine. ;-)

I have good ears. I am a trained musician. I know, pretty much, what I am hearing, but I always - ALWAYS - defer to what my test equipment tells me is REALLY going on, because I have learned, by experience, that I cannot always trust my ears. Why? Because the principles of psychoacoustics tell me that I cannot always trust them to tell me what is really going on.

The point is: unless you're Carolyn Davis, you don't really KNOW what's happening when it comes to what a loudspeaker is doing in a room in real time without the proper test equipment. Even my late friend, the world-famous audio engineer Dr. John K. Hilliard, when speaking of what we really KNOW about how speakers and rooms behave and interact with one another, said, "We are only now beginning to nibble around the edges of the moderately difficult."

[LowOhms]

Todd,

We have a mutual friend. Don Davis. I visited Don in Austin in the 1980s or 1990s, , and bought four RCA Ubangie doubkle 15 inch bass horns of his, for my own use. Very nice, talented person Don is !!!


Jeff Medwin.....Low Ohms.

[mah]

Jeff, Please tell us more about your friendship with Don Davis, for posterity.

[tomt]

It is is a well recorded fact, that women are more sensitive,

Hearingwise, than men.

I have no doubt that Carolyn Davis,

has a handle on listening skills.

Another woman, whom could hear,

Would be Wilma Cozart Fine.

Wilma Cozart Fine - Wikipedia

A native of Fort Worth, she attended the University of North Texas studying music education at the UNT College of Music and business.
In 2011, Cozart Fine was awarded a
Grammy Trustees Award,
for her significant contributions to the recording industry.

- - - Updated - - -

Of course, a typical EE will turn over in their grave, when we talk about designing things intuitively and subjectively making design decisions.

Which is what this guy said -


Direct Heating

[LowOhms]

It is is a well recorded fact, that women are more sensitive,

Hearingwise, than men.

I have no doubt that Carolyn Davis,

has a handle on listening skills.

Another woman, whom could hear,

Would be Wilma Cozart Fine.

Wilma Cozart Fine - Wikipedia




- - - Updated - - -





Which is what this guy said -


Direct Heating

Hi Tom T,

Looked at this, his recent 2015 schematic :

300B SE / 50 SE (50 SE / 300B SE) compatible power amplifier

In my opinion, I see many many basic design errors !!!

a) Three interstage transformers in series, when a two stager with a SINGLE direct couple will wipe that out !! KISS rules.,

b) a spike-producing capacitor B+ input filter?? 5U4GB, any such rectifier tube, needs ideally to see a choke input filter.

c) Grade school-level Rk bypassing, he is "unconscious" of Rk caspacitor's effect on overall sound..

e) Rk resistor chains connected in SERIES !!! Yuck. Worst way to get a value. Come on !!

f) No 12 to 15 Ohm Rs soldered, from the ends of the "50" hum pot, to the center tap.....to eliminate the Diode-Effect of wiper's contact . Come on !!

Was just a quick look. Greg B's new amp will WIPE that "50" amp out....for the above schematic reasons, VERY easily. The Japanese lay out and parts are a whole other matter...... everything matters .

BEST to you,

Jeff................. Low Ohms

[BillWojo]

Well Jeff, sounds like you know better than everyone how to build 300B amps. So when are you going into production?
Please keep it at a reasonable price so everyone can afford it. I can't wait till all the old used amps hit Craigslist after they buy yours.
Might be time to upgrade to a set of MC75's.

BillWojo