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"What part of it came from Yamaha?"
Reads to me they were sold to Yamaha, not the other way around.
"Didn't the pancake design have some problems? ..... something about not enough mass "
Think about the app. Bolting a pancake to a 515 yields plenty of mass.
<font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">[ May 28, 2008 02:01 PM: Message edited by: bfish ]</font>
AbG- IMHO the driver is what makes it an Engine- I'd defer to someone who was there. I wasn't.
Again all I'm disputing is
1 That's not an Engine and
2 The 816VIX is what determines it's an Engine.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Your right, I read the "for" as "from".Quote:
Originally posted by bfish:
"What part of it came from Yamaha?"
Reads to me they were sold to Yamaha, not the other way around.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Right, but GaryZ indicated that he would have liked to have had it as a stand alone driver, and that is what I was referring too.Quote:
"Didn't the pancake design have some problems? ..... something about not enough mass "
Think about the app. Bolting a pancake to a 515 yeilds plenty of mass.
<font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">[ May 28, 2008 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Audio_by_Goodwill ]</font>
Mistake while trying to edit
<font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">[ May 28, 2008 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Audio_by_Goodwill ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Clearly the driver is the key, and not the box. However, I thought that possibly it took the whole driver/cabinet assembly, to have an Engine. Looking back, I see that GaryZ already indicated that the driver is the Engine.Quote:
Originally posted by O G:
[QB]AbG- IMHO the driver is what makes it an Engine- I'd defer to someone who was there. I wasn't.
I suppose I'm probably looking deeper than I need to.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think I know where Convergence is getting mixed up, and hopefully he'll read my explanation, posted earlier.Quote:
Again all I'm disputing is
1 That's not an Engine and
2 The 816VIX is what determines it's an Engine.
I will be more precise this time.
THE ALTEC DUPLEX ENGINE
The 515 8GHP
REAR NOTICE THE 299 HF DRIVER
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2008/05/20.jpg
FRONT IT SHOWS THROAT FOR 1.4 "HORN
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2008/05/21.jpg
HORN
http://www.hostboard.com/forums/hbmc...2008/05/22.jpg
THE CABINET 816 VI
...............................
Gentlemen,
An "Engine" is a component driver with a shared magnet. Marketing hype "dual magnet" is maybe confusing, but, all "Engine" components share a single magnet with the HF phase plug/diaphragm on the back and the woofer pole piece and voice coil on the front. "Engines" were installed in all of the models that I listed. The first "Engine" (299 HF) required a bass-horn cabinet because of the large HF horn. Any of Altec bass-horns would work, even the 817. The small-format "Engine" was designed with a flat face horn and would work in any cabinet. The latest "Engine" (Altec CD1012-8A or GPA 212-8A) will also work in any cabinet.
The cabinet does not make an "Engine".
I have been reviewing old literature and maybe some of the confusion is because the term "Engine" was discontinued after the initial intro of the 9864-8A and 9894-8A. We started refering to all the speakers loaded with this amazing driver as "DTS" (Duplex Technology System).
In the late 1980's Yamaha America wanted to build the best and most expensive concert system available. They tested and listened to all of the large-format HF drivers and decided the Altec 299 was the best. Yamaha America bought standard 299's and used them in their FOH speakers. They decided to use the 299 in a high-performance floor monitor and found the driver was too long. Bill H. developed a pancake version by removing the front pot. The only loss was about 1.5dB below 800Hz. This is not a problem, even when crossed over at 500Hz (Yamaha floor monitors were crossed over much higher).
<font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">[ May 28, 2008 05:58 PM: Message edited by: GaryZ ]</font>
Thanks again Gary.
Kinda OT, but do you know what 1.4" horns Yamaha employed in those systems?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry bfish, I never got to hear or see the finished Yamaha products.Quote:
Originally posted by bfish:
Thanks again Gary.
Kinda OT, but do you know what 1.4" horns Yamaha employed in those systems?
That's cool, thanks. If they weren't Altec horns, at least now us scroungers might have another potential source of semi-compact 1.4" horns. http://www.hostboard.com/forums/
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hi Todd. I haven't been called "doctor" for many years . . . Thanks!Quote:
Originally posted by Todd W. White:
GARY!
Didn't realize that was you!
Welcome, Dr.!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">NP- Altec still called it a Duplex though.Quote:
Originally posted by GaryZ:
Dear OG,
One more time, the "Engine" was the component used in the speakers listed on my last note. The definition of an "Engine" is a single shared magnet. All Altec coaxial speakers (8" to 16")are called Duplex(R). The large "Engine" was never offered as a componet. The small "Engine" was offered as a 15" ceiling speaker (model 950-8A, the 950-8B was an EV copy with the HF driver on the back ala 604).
Although Bill H. developed the original "Engine", the latest version was developed by the fiends at Altec Lansing Technologies. I was part of the team that developed it. The CD1012-8A (ceiling speaker) is Bill's design ("Engine" with 299 HF) with a sweet little horn and crossover by Charlie Hughes. We are all very lucky that Bill can produce this fine speaker for us.
My issue is with Convergence that the 9864 driver isn't an engine.
And that the 816 VIX determined it was an engine.
Altec of old built other Engines based on that driver system. The driver system determined it was an Engine, not the box.
This is from the Altec pro page:
"1993: The 9864 ENGINE loudspeaker is introduced, with a revolutionary dual-magnet structure high output Duplex? speaker component loaded into a bass horn cabinet. This speaker is the ideal choice for Houses of Worship and Auditoriums, and soon becomes Altec's best selling speaker system. The 9800-series "beige" speaker family is introduced."
You were there- but it states dual magnet units were also called Engines.
I admit to not selling much- frankly hardly any- Altec circa late 80's-early 90's.
So is this just another Altec pro mis info or were the original dual magnet units called Engines too?
GARY!
Didn't realize that was you!
Welcome, Dr.!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I was thinking that I wouldn't mind having a 1.4" Yamaha HF driver, if it's really an Altec.Quote:
Originally posted by bfish:
That's cool, thanks. If they weren't Altec horns, at least now us scroungers might have another potential source of semi-compact 1.4" horns. http://www.hostboard.com/forums/
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://www.proaudiobstock.com/product219.htmlQuote:
Originally posted by GaryZ:
The CD1012-8A (ceiling speaker) is Bill's design ("Engine" with 299 HF) with a sweet little horn and crossover by Charlie Hughes. We are all very lucky that Bill can produce this fine speaker for us.
Those things any good? If so I don't need them, hope somebody can use 'em.
So is the ENGINE one magnet for both drivers?
If it is then it's not a true Altec Duplex.
The DTS has to separate drivers ,no one disputes that.
I just made some corrections on a EUROPEAN forum.
They love the DTS 9864 they say it's a remarkable piece of equipment.
...................................
<font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">[ May 30, 2008 09:11 PM: Message edited by: CONVERGENCE ]</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I understand what you are saying, but Duplex is a trade mark legally. Not a description.Quote:
Originally posted by CONVERGENCE:
If it is then it's not a true Altec Duplex.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Quote:
Originally posted by CONVERGENCE:
So is the ENGINE one magnet for both drivers?
If it is then it's not a true Altec Duplex.
(GaryZ Says: Yes, the "Engine" is one magnet. I really think you are confused about Altec's marketing terms. Duplex is Altec for Coaxial.)
The DTS has to separate drivers ,no one disputes that.
(GaryZ Says: Sorry to dispute, DTS was short for "Duplex Technology System" and the original DTS speakers were "Engines". Later models (DTS94, DTS99, DTS640, DTS941) were from EV engineering and used separate EV drivers.)
I just made some corrections on a EUROPEAN forum.
They love the DTS 9864 they say it's a remarkable piece of equipment.
(GaryZ Says: The 9864-8A was included in the family when "DTS" was rolled out by marketing. The same 16" "Engine" was used in the 9864-8A, 9894-8A, DTS645-8AF, and DTS945-8AF. The same 12" "Engine" was used in the 9264-8A, 9294-8A, DTS642-8AF, and DTS942-8AF.
install box / concert box
9864-8A / DTS645-8AF
9894-8A / DTS945-8AF
9264-8A / DTS642-8A
9294-8A / DTS942-8AF
I can send you a .pdf called "DTS Matrix" from 1994.)
...................................
<font color="#FFFFFF"><font size="1">[ May 30, 2008 09:11 PM: Message edited by: CONVERGENCE ]</font></font>
Well, I didn't get the components on Ebay. I forgot to bid before I went to work..... no big deal I suppose. I really wanted the whole 9864A, not parts.
Something that I thought I'd mention...... my cabinet isn't plywood. It doesn't realy look like particle board, either. It looks closer to OSB! I'm not sure if that's good or bad. Hopefully, the longer strands will provide better rigidity than particle board or MDF.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">GaryZ Says:Quote:
Originally posted by Audio_by_Goodwill:
Well, I didn't get the components on Ebay. I forgot to bid before I went to work..... no big deal I suppose. I really wanted the whole 9864A, not parts.
Something that I thought I'd mention...... my cabinet isn't plywood. It doesn't realy look like particle board, either. It looks closer to OSB! I'm not sure if that's good or bad. Hopefully, the longer strands will provide better rigidity than particle board or MDF.
The material used for the 9864 enclosure was selected for two primary reasons. It was available with the wood-grain vinyl siding and it was resistant to moisture contamination. The vinyl siding gave the installer a variety of finish choices (natural, paint, stain). The moisture resistance gave it longevity in somewhat hostile environments. These are good things. The bad things? The material is heavy and it crumbled at the corners if damaged.
Thanks Gary for the explanation. I did refer duplex as coax over there.
I'll save your components number in a special file in case we lose the Altec Pro PDF reference again.
The 12" DE series by Altec Pro was selling 3000$
back 4 tears ago. That was a big marketing BOu Bou.
They should have reintroduced the DTS 16" model.
I don't believe in 12" for concerts . Compensation with subs is not how the theory of sound wave propagation was thought and devised by Hillard.
16" is the way to build a decent sound system.
One famous artist is touring the world with all 12" MILO . They had problems with the first couple of shows. Can't say more don't want to get
sued.
....................
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So all the 816VIX's that were built for the 9864A were this OSB type material? I thought maybe mine was different since the spec sheet for the 816VIX cabinet specifies plywood. I also notice the the plywood mentioned in the 816VIX spec sheet is "texture painted Acousta-Beige" which I now realize is not the same as the vinyl on my cabinet. Would it be fair to say that the 9864A got a specially tailored version of the 816VIX?Quote:
Originally posted by GaryZ:
GaryZ Says:
The material used for the 9864 enclosure was selected for two primary reasons.....
I plan on eventually putting a layer of plywood over the outside of my cabinet. I think that will be the most efficient way to get away from the nasty latex wall paint that was slathered over it! My goal is a nice wood finish.
<font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">[ May 31, 2008 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Audio_by_Goodwill ]</font>
Even though the data sheet claims 3/4" birch plywood, I am pretty sure all boxes with vinyl-wrap were 3/4" "Enviroboard".
Let me get back to you on this . . .
Dunno if it sheds any light- but in the construction industry OSB (not waferboard) specs the same as plywood...
Gary did you notice the link I posted? Supposedly that place still has 12's available...would those be OK for stage wedges?
It may be that nobody has corrected the website..won't know till somebody tries to order...
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OG, weren't all the new Altec drivers made in China..... or did they start out being made by Bill, and only go to China at the very end? I know I've seen a few drivers on Ebay or maybe even in ALT literature, that said "Made in China" upon close examination.Quote:
Originally posted by O G:
Gary did you notice the link I posted? Supposedly that place still has 12's available...would those be OK for stage wedges?
Good question AbG, I know some stuff was Bill's like the 604's.
One of the things I'm hoping Gary can answer- were these Bill's or Chinese...
If these are Bill's- that's a good deal- assuming they ARE still available.
<font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">[ May 31, 2008 08:52 PM: Message edited by: O G ]</font>
The units introduced and sold as the Altec Lansing CD1012-8A have a donut shaped crossover with cover on the back cover. They are all made in China and sound fantastic as mains, floor monitors, or home stereo. The 299 HF diaphragm can hit very high levels without distortion.
I think the 212-8A from Bill H. is his version of the CD1012-8A without a passive crossover. By now he might have a separate passive crossover.
Thanks Gary- I was just thinking a stage wedge could be made incredibly compact with that speaker.
Bill's is an improved version of the idea, which he had before ALPro beat him to it. It has a proprietary crossover designed using their new TEF system, and is outstanding!
Spec Sheet = http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/downloads/212_8A.pdf
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I did some checking and regardless of what the data sheet says the 816VIX enclosure, and therefore the 9864-8A and 9894-8A, are special OSB (strand board) with vinyl-wrap. The material is made using a moisture resistant glue.Quote:
Originally posted by GaryZ:
Even though the data sheet claims 3/4" birch plywood, I am pretty sure all boxes with vinyl-wrap were 3/4" "Enviroboard".
Let me get back to you on this . . .
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thank you Gary for checking that out further. I appreciate it!Quote:
Originally posted by GaryZ:I did some checking and regardless of what the data sheet says the 816VIX enclosure, and therefore the 9864-8A and 9894-8A, are special OSB (strand board) with vinyl-wrap. The material is made using a moisture resistant glue.
<font color="#FFFFFF" size="1">[ June 03, 2008 12:58 PM: Message edited by: Audio_by_Goodwill ]</font>