S2, horn, K 15 40

[Romy the Cat]

I use 2405's & find them excellent. As for the crossover, I recommend crossing at about 5k with a 12 db slope.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, the Vitavox S2 with 5kHz second order slope!!!! Ken, are you catapulted from another planet? Are you sure the in our planets the S2s were the same drivers? I am not kidding; even using your multi-sell to inject into S2 any 5kHz is like to ?indulge? ice-cream with ketchup?. But prefabs I am wrong, as usually? and I have to shut up and let AndyGrandy to enjoy this version of a little Vitavox Asylum?

Rgs,
Romy the Cat

Signature line: Friends let fiends to kill, kill, kill, this miserable fuzzy pussy!

[guy sergeant]

Hi Romy,

I use the 2405 with a first order series PIO cap (and resistor to bring it's output down to suitable levels.) I let the S2 run out by itself but it definitely needs some assistance at HF as it declines quite dramatically above 5K (certainly when used with the RH330) I found that it couldn't cover the necessary bandwidth on it's own. I also find the characteristic sound of the Alnico 2405 to be sufficiently similar. Are you using the S2 without any augmentation? Which horn have you decided is best for it? I recall that at one point you were considering using 2 units. One for lower mid and another for upper mid. Have you taken that approach any further?

best regards,

Guy

[Datubie]

Guy,

I'm currently running my system 3 way with an active crossover. K15/50 in an Onken box(400hz & below), JBL 2405 tweeters (5.6K & up) and Altec 288-16G's on 531 (400-5.6k hz) horns. I've just received some Dukane badged CN157 horns, the same as used in the HF section of the CN191. I've sent Peter some pics which should be up on the website soon. As expected, these are much different sounding from the 531 multicells & I can almost go without the JBL tweeters. I'll be going 4 way once I build enough amplifiers and will use the 531 from 250 to 1k Hz & the CN157 from 1k to 5.6k Hz. The single Onken will be replaced by a dual woofer unit.

I find that going active is just more convenient & sounds much better too. I've had enough with passive xover components!

Ken S

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 29, 2004 05:08 AM: Message edited by: Datubie ]</font>

[Romy the Cat]

to guyuser:

*** I let the S2 run out by itself but it definitely needs some assistance at HF as it declines quite dramatically above 5K (certainly when used with the RH330)

Not really. S2 is quite effectively runs all the way to ~11-12kH? if it is properly used. In fact to it is very bad idea to break any driver at 5kHz, as this is region where the string crescendos live and when you have that fat wave of the entire string group you never get it ?right? with multiple drivers covering 1000-10.000 zone. There are MANY other moments when 5kHz approach falls short?.

**** Which horn have you decided is best for it?

Certainly not the default 330Hz Vitavox 1-3 sectional horns. They are dreadful and they are one of the reasons why people pout there do not get any serious result out of S2 and actually do not let people to this about S2 in more creative way?

***I recall that at one point you were considering using 2 units. One for lower mid and another for upper mid. Have you taken that approach any further?

Only as a prototype?

[Romy the Cat]

Ken,

Sorry, I was under impression that you use S2 with your multi-sell. However, as I remember the 288-16G ran way higher when I used them and the multi-sell should not eat so much. Congratulation with the CN157 horns: they are horrible and you current multi-sells are way more interesting (particularly if you have a space).

The Cat

[guy sergeant]

Hi Romy,

The key words in your reply were 'properly used'.
I appreciate that the RH330 is far from perfect. It is all I have at the moment though. What type of horn should I use/make that would give that kind of response (up to 10KHZ flat) from the S2? Note, I am not deliberately filtering the output from the S2 I am just letting it run out by itself although the RH330 is probably accelerating the process.

best regards,

Guy

[Romy the Cat]

Guy,

The key mistake that Vitavox did way an assumption the S2 might be 2-way driver but it is not. This is why all their 2-way systems sound so ?strange? (like the CN191). If you do not go with the mean Vitavox horns for the S2?s lover knee then you will jump over the miserable S2 secondary resonance at 1250Hz and will be able to select within the S2?s HF slope any desirable point where you would like to consider it has a reference sensitively. Mine, properly tuned (another key word), has 109dB and runs all the way up to 11-12kHz. Be advised that if you do not go for S2?s LF then you may use way shorter horn with consequential less HF?s EQ? The S2 is quite complex driver to use and I usually have a lot of skepticism and arrogance when I see people adore it?s sound. As far as I concern the ?default? use of S2 (or whatever I have seen out there) makes it sound very unfortunate and I have no idea why the foolish S2 cult is being supported among them. Funny but the more horrible result people get out of S2 the more songs of appreciation they sing. A few months ago I bought one more S2 driver form a Midwest guys. The guy was fine in all other areas but he was keep singing me the song how spectacular his S2 sounded when he used it. When I begin to ask him what he did with the driver the guy turn out to be completely clueless in what he heard and each and single misery of S2 he perceived and a beauty? Do you think that there is some kind of epidemic doing on with the Vitavox users or it is something wrong with me? I consulted with my Cat and she told me that I am OK.

:-)
The Cat

[Datubie]

Originally posted by Romy the Cat:
Ken,

Sorry, I was under impression that you use S2 with your multi-sell. However, as I remember the 288-16G ran way higher when I used them and the multi-sell should not eat so much. Congratulation with the CN157 horns: they are horrible and you current multi-sells are way more interesting (particularly if you have a space).

Romy,

No, I don't have any S2s. The freq range is certainly truncated when I use the the multicell, probably uo to 10-12k max, but with the CN157 up to 17K I'd say. On their own the CN157 ring like church bells! But with liberal use of non-drying modelers clay and bolting the thing securly to a board, it is pretty good I think. There is also that certain snob appeal compared to Altecs....
The Cat

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[img]tongue.gif[/img]

[guy sergeant]

Hi Romy,

I understand the point you are making although I find it difficult to reconcile what you are saying with how it can be achieved without compromises being made elsewhere. As I understand it you aren't trying to get the S2 to play too low and can therefore get away with a shorter smaller horn which has less of an effect on the upper end of it's response. I can see the appeal of that. However something has to be playing from say 350 Hz to 2Khz so if it isn't the S2 what is it?


With regard to using the S2 'incorrectly' I am getting results in the combination I am using which I feel compare very favourably with commercially available speakers like the AG Trio. The S2's, even with the RH330's in this installation are clearer, cleaner, more dynamic and less coloured than the AG system. The reproduction of instrument timbre and voice is far better. The AG is probably the best 'commercially available' speaker system I have heard.(If you know of a better one please tell me about it) For a 50 year old component to give better than that level of performance at a fraction of the cost is, in my book, remarkable and I can quite understand why other users eulogise the merits of these drivers even if they were only hearing a part of what I am hearing and even if this type of wider range application has the technical shortcomings you describe. I have listened to other systems with the highly regarded (by some) TAD drivers and always find them hard and relentless. I have also heard some of the french based Onken systems and found that they too lacked the sweetness of these drivers. I haven't heard the ALE or Goto systems that are revered by Japanese audiophiles so I suppose they may be better but I wouldn't be able to afford them anyway. So yes, while the S2/RH330 2405 combination may be less than perfect it's still a better solution for me than anything I've heard to date. I have to keep reminding myself that I've probably only got another 30 or so years to live and I might as well enjoy my music while I can. Of course I will continue to look for improvements and learn more about this subject but, believe me, where I'm at now isn't as bad as you might think.

Once again, if you're not using the LF end of the S2 what do you have doing that bit instead?

[Romy the Cat]

*** I understand the point you are making although I find it difficult to reconcile what you are saying with how it can be achieved without compromises being made elsewhere. As I understand it you aren't trying to get the S2 to play too low and can therefore get away with a shorter smaller horn which has less of an effect on the upper end of it's response. I can see the appeal of that. However something has to be playing from say 350 Hz to 2Khz so if it isn't the S2 what is it?

I use S2 from 1000 to 12K in 500Hz tatrix

*** With regard to using the S2 'incorrectly' I am getting results in the combination I am using which I feel compare very favourably with commercially available speakers like the AG Trio. The S2's, even with the RH330's in this installation are clearer, cleaner, more dynamic and less coloured than the AG system. The reproduction of instrument timbre and voice is far better. The AG is probably the best 'commercially available' speaker system I have heard.

AG Trio are very complex speakers and it require a lot of experience and time to make them sound OK. Can the sound good? Yes, they can but the have their own ?issues? that derive from fundamental design (none-compression, ceramic drivers with ferofluid midrange, sharp ?full use? tweeter at 5K, and ?slippery? horns). The S2 and Ag are VERY different speakers. The best implemented AG Trios do very well (and I have seen only two installations where it was accomplished ?all the rest AG installations the I have head were garbage), particularly for none-classical music.

*** TAD drivers and always find them hard and relentless.

Yes, they are good only for a impressionism only?

***I haven't heard the ALE or Goto systems that are revered by Japanese audiophiles so I suppose they may be better but I wouldn't be able to afford them anyway.

I have not heard them as well. I know there is a guy in US (I believe ?Brooks audio?) who build many systems explicitly with ALE and each system he build, looking at the pictures) make me to laugh how absurd it is. Go figure how the drivers sound? Generally I am very suspicious about some of the Japanese products. Those guys heard differently and some of the thing they do differently, although some of the things they did ARE very wonderful. If you were in Japan, then you may recognize that they are introvertialy closes community with a great ability to absorb the thing and to reinvent them internally, very frequently quite effectively and creatively. They have a great high-end layer but is has something what I call dual BS exposure. We westerners do not deal with this the Japanese high-end thinking but only with completely idiotic wrappers that some dual-culture individuals have created for them. Whatever we see as Japan high-end audio is pretty much garbage. What is not garbage is completely hidden from us and we have no access to it. What we have assess is from another side the very healthy cult is the specific western products that Japanese people buy paying outrages amounts and boosting prices around the World and from another side a very cult of the very crappie Japanese high-end products that the wily, and mostly moronic distributors deploy to us. This dual stream of the marketing BS really drive me nuts.

*** So yes, while the S2/RH330 2405 combination may be less than perfect it's still a better solution for me than anything I've heard to date. I have to keep reminding myself that I've probably only got another 30 or so years to live and I might as well enjoy my music while I can.

I know what you mean?

*** Once again, if you're not using the LF end of the S2 what do you have doing that bit instead?

Just a stander 4 way solution: another channel from 100 to 1000

Rgs,
The Cat