Here are the Pics from Andy.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 29, 2004 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Peter Empson ]</font>
Hi Romy,
The two times I have heard the AG Trio's sounding good were both at German shows where they were set up with the basshorn by AG themselves. To my ears they are head and shoulders clear of any other commercially available speakers.
With regard to the Japanese there are at least audiophiles there who have sufficient intellectual rigour, taste and understanding to appreciate what was achieved by the pioneers of audio. Ale and Audio Note appreciate the benefits of using Permendur for their pole pieces be it in drive units or MC cartridges. Audio Tekne and Sakuma appreciate the benefits of well executed transformer coupling. It is no surprise therefore that they treasure items such as Vitavox, RCA and Western Electric drivers and properly made, properly evacuated tubes. Items designed and manufactured in the days before accountants called the shots in R&D. I visited Tokyo in 1988 soon after becoming interested in simple triode amplifiers and was shocked to discover how mature and refined that particular movement already was. While Americans were worshipping Krell etc these guys had been revisiting 1930's technology for the previous 15 years.
With regard to your speaker system, it might be argued that 1 KHz isn't the best place to have a crossover but if you are making it work then that's what matters. I've seen you querying the merits of 12" units on this forum. Can I assume that the 100-1KHz range is covered by a 15" driver? And are you using a tweeter above 12KHz? If so which one? Do you have a view on the 2405?
best regards,
Guy
Here are the Pics from Andy.
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 29, 2004 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Peter Empson ]</font>
*** With regard to the Japanese there are at least audiophiles there who have sufficient intellectual rigour, taste and understanding to appreciate what was achieved by the pioneers of audio. Ale and Audio Note appreciate the benefits of using Permendur for their pole pieces be it in drive units or MC cartridges. Audio Tekne and Sakuma appreciate the benefits of well executed transformer coupling. It is no surprise therefore that they treasure items such as Vitavox, RCA and Western Electric drivers and properly made, properly evacuated tubes. Items designed and manufactured in the days before accountants called the shots in R&D. I visited Tokyo in 1988 soon after becoming interested in simple triode amplifiers and was shocked to discover how mature and refined that particular movement already was. While Americans were worshipping Krell etc these guys had been revisiting 1930's technology for the previous 15 years.
Yes, pay attention that the majority of ?our? Klangs, Teles, WE and many others we hunt today in Japan as well as the Altec and JBL did bunch if the very serious designs specifically for the Japanese market. However what we, Americans, recognize today at the Japanese high-end? The Audio Note?s reflections presented by a selfish Jew from New Hampshire and bunch of the similar audio aberrations, not to mention the this equipment is not particular well sounding. Even if you dig in the Japanese underworld then you will find quite questionable result. Be advised that all stories that you heard about Sakuma (and few others) are mostly function of the crafty publicists. Visit Sakuma, actually listen the result and you will see nothing remarkably interesting. Well, I certainly not saying that there are no result in Japan (what the hell I?m to say it) but I saying that I do not support the fashionable today snobbism about the Japanese high-end sound. BTW, not anyone in US worshipped Krell and no everyone where caught into the triode amplifiers?
*** With regard to your speaker system, it might be argued that 1 KHz isn't the best place to have a crossover but if you are making it work then that's what matters.
I find that 0.8-1.2KHz of less dangers level to cut it off because it very easy to integrate the drivers in there using long penetrating tails?
*** I've seen you querying the merits of 12" units on this forum. Can I assume that the 100-1KHz range is covered by a 15" driver?
Nope, with 15" driver in 100-1KHz range you end up or with too short horn (large throat) and loosing horn loading at LF or with too small throat and consequentially too much compression (step) in the horn?s input. For whatever reason it lose HF in the horn, perhaps because the ?step? begin to act as an 6dB/octave front compression chamber? I do not know why. To load 100Hz you would need 35-40? horn and this would lead to 4-5? throat. When you take the best 15" driver that you even seen and load it into the 4-5? hole it will not sound as good as you accustomed (I made those experiments). The optimum driver size for 100-1KHz range horn loaded is 4-6? id you would be able to find the driver like this?
*** And are you using a tweeter above 12KHz? If so which one?
Hhhhhhhhm, I would say yes? It would be hard to explain what I do with them: you have to hear it. The S2 sound at HT very idiosyncratic and what I do is ejecting a modulative resonance at approximately minus 9db to cure some S2?s problems? It is not a tweeter in a normal sense?
*** Do you have a view on the 2405?
I did not have them, I had 077 and I find them to punchy
Rgs,
The cat
Yes, Peter, this is the worst horn that Vitavox ever made and the S2 sounds in it like my Cat sitting in a barrel.
Hold on, hold on it just realized that I have one horn like this in my storage that is highly available for sale! Forget what the idiot-Romy told you: this horn is a wonder in the Universe and it sounds spectacular! I will be very glad if the hungry for moderation Andy would buy it from me. I sell this horn like the Kittens: I?m looking for a ?matching? good home. A certain synergy, as the reviews tell us, between the horn and the prospective owner?
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 29, 2004 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Romy the Cat ]</font>
OK Mr. Pussy Cat you have my attention... I can only imagine how horrible it must sound but I will debase myself publicly and tell you that I would like to buy it from you. Depending of course on the usual parameters; price, condition, shipping costs etc. You can contact me off-list to discuss these details so as to avoid boring the other nice people (and further humilition to myself...)
[email protected]
Haha! Those are the CN157. You'll need to damp them out & bolt them down to get the best out of them. I think they aren't as bad as Romy makes them out to be. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why, the further embarrassment of my new moderation demanding friends is something that my hungry for a mischievous behavior feline personality really likes. Besides, if you really feel that my admiration of your abidance-starving attitude I less then your vision of yourself then you always can send an email to the administrator of this forum complaining that you have twenty seven medals as a chaplain of Royal Mountain Police but this mean Pussy refuse to become a vegetarian when you rise your military trained voice.Originally posted by AndyGrandy:
OK Mr. Pussy Cat you have my attention... I can only imagine how horrible it must sound but I will debase myself publicly and tell you that I would like to buy it from you. Depending of course on the usual parameters; price, condition, shipping costs etc. You can contact me off-list to discuss these details so as to avoid boring the other nice people (and further humilition to myself...)
[email protected]
It was just a lyric introduction?
Regarding your driver. Price: I really do not know. A gut offered to me once $750 with S2 driver but I do not sell the S2 drivers. I have 4 of then holding my Cat?s letterbox and it really helps with her stomach problems. Considering that the driver in that condition should cost ~$500 then I think an approximate price for the horn would be $250. I personally feel that it is too expensive. Condition: the thread is perfectly fine the horn is OK too, although I do not know what wrong might be with it. Cosmetically it is kind of strange. It is painted in some kind of mat black paint. I do not know if it original paint, I doubt. Internally it looks fine but externally not particularly attractive. Anyhow, if you planning to use in then you will damp it the externally anyhow and the external look should be irrelevant. The shipping costs: I have no idea. I live in Boston 02116. You will be paying the actual shipping cost, whatever it will be. The packing and handling will be free for you as my little positive gesture to you because you referred to the fuzzy pussy as Mr. Pussy Cat
The caT
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Datubie,Originally posted by Datubie:
Haha! Those are the CN157. You'll need to damp them out & bolt them down to get the best out of them. I think they aren't as bad as Romy makes them out to be. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
I agree with you: it is not so bad.
The mass-loading it also really helps, and practicality if you put atop of it the Chernobyl Sarcophagus. Also, really help if you put a jack inside it and begin to stretch it up, until it will be spherical with a tatrix curve. In addition, it would help if you take a sow and cut 4 inches in its perimeter, converting it from 330Hz horn into 500Hz horn.
Oh, yes, I forgot to tell that while you do it you should videotape it. When the film will be over it would be nice to trade it as a practical "horn improving manual" for the Audio Asylum Morons, and for the money you got from the sale you should be able to afford buying/making a normal wooden or a paper horn.
Rgs,
Romy the Cat
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 30, 2004 06:08 AM: Message edited by: Romy the Cat ]</font>
Hi Romy,
I take your point about not all US enthusiasts adopting the Krell sledgehammer/nut approach. I was generalising about trends in the market rather than every individual. I also take on board the fact that not everyone agrees that triodes are the way to go. In my experience that type of simple amplifier does preserve best the qualities that make music interesting and when used with reasonably efficient loudspeakers can yield the most satisfying results. With regard to the Japanese manufacturers I was referring to the Kondo designed and built Audio Note products which can and do sound very good. I don't know which items you've been listening to.
I also share your view that digital crossovers are likely to have a detrimental effect on the sound of a speaker system. Ease of use I suppoose makes them attractive. It does make me smile however when you then express contempt for analogue as a source in comparison to (presumably) CD. CD is beset by many of the same problems and even the best players struggle to reproduce the timbre of acoustic instruments. In my view it is far easier to achieve a satisfactory result with a wide range of well recorded LP's played on a good quality analogue front end. I do use CD but as a source it comes 4th in qualitative terms behind the record player, a good tuner replaying live recordings or my trusty reel to reel playing back recordings I've made (badly) myself. I'm surprised that you've succumbed to the easy if limited appeal of CD. Do you use a computer operating system designed in the 70's as well?
Your 4 way configuration does sound interesting though. I'll have to get some 500 Hz tractrix horns made and try that approach.
Best regards,
Guy
*** I also take on board the fact that not everyone agrees that triodes are the way to go. In my experience that type of simple amplifier does preserve best the qualities that make music interesting and when used with reasonably efficient loudspeakers can yield the most satisfying results.
Guy, and how many properly built PP amps have you seen? There are none of know to me commercially available. So, are we questioning a topology or we question the specific limitations of the given implementations? BTW, your Ag Trios sound more interesting with PP amps then with SETs, and it has nothing to do with power or with impedance drops? So, go figure?
*** I also share your view that digital crossovers are likely to have a detrimental effect on the sound of a speaker system. Ease of use I suppoose makes them attractive. It does make me smile however when you then express contempt for analogue as a source in comparison to (presumably) CD. CD is beset by many of the same problems and even the best players struggle to reproduce the timbre of acoustic instruments. In my view it is far easier to achieve a satisfactory result with a wide range of well recorded LP's played on a good quality analogue front end. I do use CD but as a source it comes 4th in qualitative terms behind the record player, a good tuner replaying live recordings or my trusty reel to reel playing back recordings I've made (badly) myself. I'm surprised that you've succumbed to the easy if limited appeal of CD. Do you use a computer operating system designed in the 70's as well?
Well, I do not know where you find me pushing ahead the ?digital agenda?. I do have quite good analog and quite good digital and play both equally successfully. Do I find that analog has some advantages, yes I do, so what? I can give you long list of the wonderful performances that never were available on LP or that are available on both formats and they are WAY better on CD then on LP (primary the music from 1924 to 1949 that was customary transferred horribly to LPs) Anyhow, this discussion is not for this forum as it is not Vitavox related. (I have to admit that I always was opposed to the hardware-centric collaborative sites. I find that the idea itself is too primitive and self-restricted. Stop by at my site and I will insult you on the subject.)
HOWEVER,
I have no idea what is relation between the type of the system's source and the type of the delay was used. For whatever, totally mysteries for me reasons, people presume that it a playback system use only digital source then the digital delays are not bad. This is very irrational assumption. It has nothing to do with the source or the "digital evil" itself but only withy the aberrations of the exchange mechanism. Evan if you use the delays after the transport, multi-DACing, multi-amping and then like the result then the digital source that you used are not good. The best transports and DACs are WAY more capable then the best digital delay machines. I do not even mention the situation when the digital delays used in any other location of a system: this is a complete idiocy?
Rgs,
Romy
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