GFIC FOR WATER HEATERS

[pilot]

HI EVERYONE
I AM WONDERING ABOUT RULE 26-758 BARE ELEMENT WATER HEATERS,
I WAS INSTALLING A NEW WATER HEATER IN ONTARIO,AND RAN ACROSS THIS RULE IN THE 23 EDITION/2002 ONTARIO ELECTRICAL SAFETY CODE,
NOW MY INTERPURTATION OF A BARE HEATER ELEMENT IMMERERSED IN WATER, IS OF THE KIND THAT HAS TWO THREADED ELEMENTS IN THE SIDE OF THE TANK CONTROLLED BY A FLIP FLOP SWITCH.AND HAVE BEEN INSTALLED ,AND PASSED WITH JUST A 10/2 BX ON A 20 AMP BREAKER.
AS OPPOSED TO THE KIND THAT WRAP AROUND THE OUT SIDE OF THE TANK FOR HEATING ( NOT IN DIRECT CONTACT WITH THE WATER)
EVERY ONE I HAVE TALKED TO SAID THAT YOU DO NOT NEED A GFCI ON THESE WATER HEATERS AND THAT I AM CRASY.I HAVE TALKED TO AN INSPECTOR ,HE DIDNOT KNOW WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT AT FIRST,THEN AFTER READING THE RULE HE AGREED THAT A GFCI WAS REQUIRED .COSTING ME $ 280.00 FOR A TWO POLE 20 AMP GFCI, I STILL HAVE HAD STRANGE LOOKS WHEN I MENTION THE RULE ( ASSUMMING THAT EVERYONE IS INSTALLING THENM WITHOUT A GFCI, AND HAVEING IT PASS INSPECTION.)

COULD SOMEONE PERHAPS FROM THE INSPECTION DEPARTMENT LET ME KNOW IF I AM PERFORMING OVERKILL HERE, AS MY CUSTOMERS ARE QUESTIONING MY ABLITY TO READ THE CODE


THANKS A LOT ANY AND ALL INFORMATION IS GREATLY APPRECIATED

[bigrockk]

Hello Pilot,
Remember this post?

http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ult...ic/f/511/t/393

I don't think the water heater you are referring to is considered bare element.

[pilot]

MY HYDRO INSPECTOR MUST HAVE MADE THE SAME MISTAKE AS I DID.
BUT NOT TO EMBARESS ANYONE I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR A CLEAR INTERPUTATION FROM E.S.A.,AS I COULD BE WAY OFF BASE WITH THIS,OR EVEN WORSE, NOT AT ALL OFF BASE.

IF THE COULD INCLUDE A MODEL OR MAKE TO THE WATER HEATER THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT WOULD HELP GREATLY.
THANKING YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR ATTETION IN THIS MATTER

[bigrockk]

Think of it this way, does the element you are referring to have a sheath? Such as a mineral insulated cable does? (Most likely copper or stainless steel) Does the current
flow through the element causing the element to heat the water? This is not a bare element heater.

Or in the case of a bare element heater does the current flow through the water itself or through a element in direct contact with the water in order to heat the water.
I know you are looking for a answer from someone in authority on the subject but maybe this will help you understand the difference until then.
Hope this helps somewhat.

The link below provides model numbers and a description of a bare element heater.

http://www.stiebel-eltron.de/index.p...=101&hg=2&re=1

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 04, 2005 02:43 PM: Message edited by: bigrockk ]</font>

[Tony Moscioni]

Pilot,

I'll give you two examples on how or why GFI protection is required.

You were not in an overkill mode, but just complying with the CSA Standard and the OESC / CEC.

From the CSA Standard:

CAN/CSA-C22.2 No. 64-M91
(Reaffirmed 2003)
Household Cooking and Liquid-Heating Appliances


8. Requirements for Bare Element Water Heaters
8.1 Scope
8.1.1
These requirements apply to self-contained factory-assembled water heaters where the heated water is in direct contact with the uninsulated heating element wire.
8.1.2
These requirements apply to household and commercial heaters rated at 240 V or less for use in nonhazardous locations and intended to be installed in accordance with the Rules of the Canadian Electrical Code, Part I, and the regulations of the applicable Building Code.
8.1.3
These requirements apply to instantaneous water heaters intended to heat potable water to a maximum temperature of 65?C.
8.1.4
These requirements apply to permanently connected heaters and do not apply to cord-connected equipment.
8.2 Definitions
Closed water heater — a water heater designed to operate under the pressure of the water supply mains, the flow being controlled by one or more valves in the product or in the distribution system.
Escape current — the current leaving the heater vessel through the water-piping system, which can become accessible by touch at the point of water utilization.
Flow switch — a switch that is operated by fluid flow caused, for example, by a pressure difference when water is let out from a tap.
Instantaneous water heater — an appliance intended for heating water only while it flows through the appliance.
8.3 General Requirements
These requirements supplement or amend those requirements given elsewhere in this Standard.
8.4 Construction
8.4.1
A leakage current collector(s) shall be provided at the water inlet and outlet of the unit in order to limit the escape current. The construction of the unit shall be such that all water entering and exiting the unit passes through the collector(s). Leakage current collectors shall be made of corrosion-resistant metal and shall be bonded to the bonding-to-ground terminal of the unit. The bonding path from the leakage current collector to the equipment-grounding terminal shall not include threaded, friction, or compression connections submerged in the water, unless the connection is treated (such as by welding or brazing) to exclude moisture and contaminants that would impair the effectiveness of the bond over the life of the product.
8.4.2
The heater shall comply with the escape current test of Clause 8.6.1 and shall not produce measured escape currents greater than 0.5 mA.
8.4.3
The construction of the heater shall be such that the scaleup of current collectors will not result in escape currents greater than 4 mA, as determined by testing the heater in accordance with Clause 8.6.1 and with the current collectors disabled (i.e., disconnected from ground).
8.4.4
The heater shall be provided with a flow switch and a temperature-limiting control device.
8.4.5
The heater shall be protected by a Class A ground fault circuit interrupter included as part of the equipment or shall be marked in accordance with Clause 8.5.3.
8.4.6
Temperature-limiting and -regulating controls and flow switches shall disconnect all live conductors of the supply circuit.
8.4.7
The temperature-limiting control device shall be a noncycling type.
8.4.8
Unless they are inherently safe without such devices, appliances shall be provided with a protective device or devices that will open the power supply or reduce the power input to the heating element to prevent fire or shock hazard when the appliance is tested under the conditions of the abnormal operation test specified in Clause 8.6.2.
8.4.9
Heater elements shall be replaceable without disturbing the grounding or bonding of the unit or current collectors.
8.4.10
The heater installation instructions shall be marked on the appliance as specified in Clauses 8.5.2 and 8.5.4.
8.5 Markings
8.5.1
In addition to applicable markings specified in Clause 5, the appliance shall be marked with the maximum operating pressure of the water system for which it is intended.
8.5.2
As required by Clause 8.4.10, the equipment shall be marked with the following caution:
CAUTION: DO NOT INSTALL IN A BATH ENCLOSURE OR SHOWER STALL OR CONNECT TO A SALT-REGENERATED WATER SOFTENER OR A WATER SUPPLY OF SALT WATER
and
ATTENTION : NE PAS INSTALLER DANS L'ENCEINTE D'UNE BAIGNOIRE OU UNE CABINE DE ****** ET NE PAS RACCORDER ? UN ADOUCISSEUR ? R?G?N?RATION AU SEL NI ? UNE ALIMENTATION EN EAU SAL?E.
8.5.3
When required by Clause 8.4.5, the equipment shall be marked with the following or equivalent caution:
CAUTION: CONNECT ONLY TO A CIRCUIT PROTECTED BY A CLASS A GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTER
and
ATTENTION : BRANCHER UNIQUEMENT ? UNE D?RIVATION PROT?G?E PAR UN DISJONCTEUR DIFF?RENTIEL DE CLASSE A.
8.5.4
In the field wiring compartment of the equipment, the following or equivalent marking shall appear next to the supply conductor terminals:
USE COPPER CONDUCTORS ONLY
and
EMPLOYER UNIQUEMENT DES CONDUCTEURS DE CUIVRE
and
USE BONDING CONDUCTOR IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE CANADIAN ELECTRICAL CODE, PART I
and
POSER UN CONDUCTEUR DE CONTINUIT? DES MASSES CONFORME AU CODE CANADIEN DE L'?LECTRICIT?, PREMI?RE PARTIE.
8.5.5 Instruction Manual
8.5.5.1
An instruction manual or the equivalent shall be provided with each unit. The important safety instructions shall be a permanent part of the manual but separated in format from other instructions that may be provided. They shall appear before the operating instructions in the manual.
8.5.5.2
The text of the important safety instructions shall be reproduced verbatim as given below or in equally definitive terminology. The items may be numbered, but the first and last items given below shall be first and last respectively. The markings of Clauses 8.5.1, 8.5.2, 8.5.3, and 8.5.4 shall be included. Other important precautionary items considered appropriate by the manufacturer may be inserted.
IMPORTANT SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS
When using this electrical equipment, basic safety precautions should always be followed, including the following:
(a) READ AND FOLLOW ALL INSTRUCTIONS.
(b) A green terminal (or a wire connector marked "G", "GR", "GROUND", OR "GROUNDING") is provided within the control box. To reduce the risk of electric shock, connect this terminal or connector to the grounding terminal of the electric service or supply panel with a continuous copper wire in accordance with the Canadian Electrical Code, Part I.
(c) This product shall be protected by a Class A ground fault circuit interrupter.
(d) SAVE THESE INSTRUCTIONS.
The phrases "IMPORTANT SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS", "READ AND FOLLOW ALL INSTRUCTIONS", and "SAVE THESE INSTRUCTIONS" shall be in letters not less than 5 mm high.



From the OESC:

26-758 Bare Element Water Heaters
(1) A water heater with a bare heater element immersed in water shall be:
(a) Supplied from a grounded system; and
(b) Permanently connected to a branch circuit that supplies no other equipment; and
(c) Protected by a ground fault circuit interrupter of the Class A type.

Tony Moscioni
Electrical Inspector
Electrical Safety Authority

[bigrockk]

Ok I hate to sound like I am being stubborn but:
Tony your reply is intended (as it seems to me) to be aimed at bare element heaters.

8. Requirements for Bare Element Water Heaters

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But I think the real question here is, is the type of water heater "Pilot" is referring to considered to be a bare element heater. Is a regular run of the mill electric water heater the type that provides hot water for the entire home and usually has about a 33 gal tank and is found in many homes in Canada, is this type of heater considered to be a "Bare element heater". (I have been assuming this is the type of heater Pilot is referring to and maybe that is my mistake?)
I do not believe that this type of "hot water tank" is a bare element heater as no part of the element is un-insulated; the water is not in direct contact with the element. The element is encased by a sheath and is isolated from the sheath. The sheath on these elements is bonded to the "grounded" tank.

8.1.1These requirements apply to self-contained factory-assembled water heaters where the heated water is in direct contact with the uninsulated heating element wire.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If my thinking is wrong on this I would sure appreciate a definitive answer as to what a "bare element heater" is.

Thanks for a good question Pilot!

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 02, 2005 10:29 PM: Message edited by: bigrockk ]</font>

[pilot]

HELLO BIGROCK
I HAVE BEEN SEARCHING THE NET TO FIND OUT THE DIFFERENCE TO STORAGE TANK WATER HEATERS ( THE KIND I AM TALKING ABOUT) AND DEMAND WATER HEATERS OR INSTANTANIOUS WATER HEATERS ( THE KIND YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT),AND HAVE FOUND NO DIFFERANCE IN THE WAY THEY HEAT WATER,IT LOOKS LIKE THEY BOTH HAVE WATER SURROUNDING THE ELEMENT IMMERSED IN WATER,WITH NO JACKET OR HOUSEING,HENCE THE REASON WHY THEY ARE NOT RUN WITH OUT WATER IN CONTACT WITH THE ELEMENT FOR FEAR OF BURNNING THEM OUT.
WITH THIS IN MIND , I AM STILL CONVINSED THAT A GFCI IS REQUIRED,( I AM ONLY LOOKING AT THE LEGAL INTERPERTATION OF THIS RULE AS ,IF IT COMES TO IT I WOULD RATHER ERROR ON THE SAFE SIDE,C.Y.A. WOULD BEE MORE ACCURATE)
ON THE FILP SIDE, IF I AM THE ONLY GUY CHARGEING AN EXTRA 2 POLE GFCI ,ON MY ESTIMATE, I PROBABLY WILL DO VERY LITTLE NEW ELECTRIC WATER HEATER INSTALLS,.( I HAVE RUN ACROSS THIS ONLY A FEW TIMES AS THE CALL FOR NEW ELECTRICAL WATER HEATER INSTALLS ARE VERY FEW),OF COURSE IF IT IS TO REPLACE AN EXSITING UNIT THE OLD WIREING ( I AM TOLD )IS STILL VALID AND PASSABLE

[Cosimo Diano]

Hey Pilot,

Remember this post?

http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ult...ic/f/511/t/364

Great question, although I'm not sure it deserves three threads.

[neil seidner]

Pilot:
If you look at Tony's post, particularily CSA standard 8.4.5 and 8.5.3. If the hot water heater you have is a bare element type, then the unit must be clearly marked as needing a GFI, or the GFI must be supplied from the manufacturer as part of the equipment. If it does not have either, then it would not be a bare element type.

[pilot]

OK.OK.
SO NOW THE REAL QUESTION IS WHERE CAN I BUY A BARE ELEMENT WATER HEATER,WEB SITE OR MANUFACTURE OUTLET ADDRESS,OR EVEN A WALLMART OR K-MART OR ANYTHING, SO THAT MY LITTLE PEA BRAIN CAN UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERANCE.AS I HAVE STATED EARLIER I SEE NO DIFERANCE IN THE MANUFACTING OF BARE ELEMENT AND STORAGE WATER TANK ELEMENT,THEY BOTH ARE IMMERSED IN WATER.SO IF I COULD FIND OUT WHERE TO BUY ONE I WILL HAVE A GOOD LOOK AT ONE TO GET IT THROUGH MY THICK SKULL WHAT IS REQUIRED, THANKS EVERYONE FOR THE INFORMATION.